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Old 05-24-2009, 08:16 PM
 
Location: Texas
470 posts, read 508,113 times
Reputation: 135

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Hmm. This is getting to be ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post

I never claimed that they were! YOU stated that they had lower crime rates! In fact they do not.

Okay, maybe you got yourself confused...I KNOW I stated that they had average crime rates. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/jailrair.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
look at the numbers for LEGAL immigrants;
-34% are uninsured as opposed to 13% of natives
-Immigrants and their U.S. born kids account for 71% of the increase in uninsured since 1989
-The poverty rate of immigrants is 19% over double that of natives
-33% of immigrant filing as head-of-household are on a major welfare program, as opposed to 16% for natives
-31% have no high school diploma as apposed to 8% of natives
-In FY of 2004 low-skilled immigrant households received $30,160 per household in immediate benefits and services. In contrast they paid only $10,573 in taxes that year. Thats a three to one rate.

We heard the same arguments before during the first immigration boom. They also have lower crime rates...but the truth of the matter is that the educational attainment for their kids is lower since they live poorer neighborhoods. Schools are not as good, not as much resources are their (no or little after school programs...hard if mommy and daddy at work all day).
An yes when a wall is built and illegals cant cross they DO go were there is no wall to cross. The wall deterred them. Thus we build a continuous wall from the Pac to the Gulf. And chum the oceans...

 
Old 05-24-2009, 08:20 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,921 times
Reputation: 822
1. current economic considerations (massive rehiring and firing, taxable sales, amount of money in social security)

I am unsure what massive rehiring and firing has to do with illegal immigration. I assume you consider the sales tax they pay and contributions to SS to be net positives, but I suspect they are more than offset by the costs of free medical care, the costs of educating their children who are in the US illegally, loss of property values in neighborhoods where clown houses open, increased auto insurance rates because of uninsured drivers, free school meals, the costs of ESL and remedial education and other expenses.

What do you think deportation will do? Massive firing and hiring. The think about healthy people is that they are more useful than sick people. So economically speaking, it's cheaper to allow them medical treatment than not go to work. Education of their children contribute to assimilation and increasing income of subsequent generations. As for the clown houses, it really didn't matter during the boom in CA. Hence why SilverLake, Echo Park, South Park, Mid-Wilshire BLEW up during the boom. Insurance companies are bastards (and I'm in insurance), trust me, rate will not decrease. Education again is cost that pays for itself.

2. political considerations (how do we treat illegals while still being on good terms with Mexico, esp. now more than ever we do need friends in this world)

I can guarantee you that we treat Mexican illegals far better than they treat anyone who enters Mexico illegally. Frankly, I see no reason why we should seek to be on good terms with a nation that habitually dumps it's poor people on us, complains bitterly when we send them back and throws a tantrum when we talk about securing our border. With friends like that, who need enemies?

We are not exactly loved around the world. The last thing we need is a neighbor that hates us. You know the whole, the enemy of my enemy is my friend...Well consider it from that POV.

3. social (human rights, what are basic rights, what type of message do we want to sent the world)

Illegal aliens have more rights and receive better treatment here than many do in their home countries. Basic rights? What's your idea of a basic right? The right to illegally squat in a country of your choosing and demand citizenship? The message that we send to the world is that we are suckers, we can be easily duped and taken advantage of. All you need to do is lay on a little guilt. That's why illegal aliens keep heading for El Norte and Uncle Sucker, I mean Uncle Sam. You can't possibly think they actually appreciate any of the things that they get here, do you?

Again, people don't base their arguments on the fact that they are here interacting with society. So, with them being here, we do need to keep them well and educated for our society to survive. Also, the message that we continuously send to the world is that we're hypocritical. We force other people to accept others, then we get mad in our own country.



Kindly elaborate.



Do you understand that a) poor American citizens and legal residents and b) poor illegal aliens are two different groups? It does not matter if they both use the same services, one is here legally and the other is not. We do not exist in some sort of Global Tribal Village no matter how fervently you wish we did. We have a duty to help poor Americans and legal residents. Mexico and their other home countries have a duty to help their citizens residing illegally in the US.

They are the same group...again there is no tangible difference. They are in the same subsect of society. This is not some Global Tribal Village. But this is actuality. Go down to the ghettos of LA, tell me what you see. You will see interactions of poor citizens and poor illegal immigrants. The reason? Well, they are in the same boat. They constitute the poor of this nation. So do you get how regardless of immigration status poor is poor in the United States and that they currently are a part of our society. If they were not a part of this society, we would not be on this forum right now.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 08:24 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,921 times
Reputation: 822
Hmm. This is getting to be ridiculous.

That Hispanics have about average incarceration rates? Sorry, but the info is all there. You've seen this before.

An yes when a wall is built and illegals cant cross they DO go were there is no wall to cross. The wall deterred them. Thus we build a continuous wall from the Pac to the Gulf. And chum the oceans...

Also they go through the wall, under the wall, over the wall, across the border hiding, ocean, via Canada, via air... The entire 2000 mile border will not patrolled every second of every day. We don't have the resources.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 08:26 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,921 times
Reputation: 822
Hmm. This is getting to be ridiculous.


Immigrants in general have lower crime rates...maybe I was not specific, but I responded on you post about IMMIGRANTS in general. So the context of that was not specifically about illegal immigration.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 08:28 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,921 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
OK: I'll bite: would you still feel that way if the majority of illegal aliens were Nordic White (or Black) vs. Mestizos from SoB?
I'm not at all Hispanic...I'm half white (Irish, German/Jewish, English) and half Black (Ivorian from Ivory Coast). I wouldn't care if they were green. So I would still feel this way.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 08:43 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,921 times
Reputation: 822
1- Illegal immigrants are not figured into unemployment numbers. That being said so what if we prospered in spite of illegal immigration?

Well, if they aren't factored into the numbers than that means that immigrants did not have an effect on employment. Also this negates that immigration was so detrimental for our nation in the past. Since obviously we saw unprecedented growth.

2-What? In a 2009 report from the Center for Immigration Studies, "At least 6.5 million illegal immigrants worked outside of agriculture in the first quarter of 2009. The overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants have a high school degree or less." Our natives may be more educated, which is where you get you numbers, but the illegal influx is by and large UNDEREDUCATED. Thus more apt to be on welfare!!!

Then we should educate their children.

Yes the economy was expanding, again in spite of illegal immigration, however now that we have hit the skids we are taking a closer look at the costs of illegal immigration and choosing to act on it. Also I am 24, I'm sorry I wasn't more involved in immigration reform in my early teens... I liked bicycles.

What does your last sentence have anything to do with anything? So I'm 23 and care about immigration rights? . PS all about skateboarding and surfing.

3- Isn't coming here illegally breaking a law? Isn't driving with no real license breaking the law? Isn't applying for welfare with no SS or citizenship breaking the law? They are breaking the law on many front. Crime in the since of rape and murder may have dropped, I don't know for certain, but the very essence of the illegal being here increases crime.

Even with these "crimes" (which is kind of a weak argument since when is a person being a person illegal...it leads to all sorts of debates and really leads to slippery slope arguments) the crime rate decreased.

4- Again, yes the economy got better and expanded, that does not however mean that illegals helped. They drove down labor costs and profited some but they did not help. Think of all the tax money, Medicare, SS, FICA that was not paid do to them being here.

If the average income rose during the 1990s and early 2000s (with inflation considered) then how did labor costs decrease? Overall, labor costs did not decrease. Wages, overall, did not decrease. On the low end, maybe.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar
That1guy, In other words, you believe illegal aliens should receive ALL rights and privileges afforded U.S. citizens. Is that your position?
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
For the most part yeah. Healthcare, education, welfare (with stipulation of either work or education...I think that we need welfare that places an emphasis on worker training in general), public housing. Well, because I think we should grant amnesty. With some possible conditions (if any previous convictions have been found then jail or deportation, don't really know, depending on situation). We can make it work if we do have a program in place to allow easier legal immigration and deter illegal immigration. So again, it really boils down to the whole package.
Ok, we have that settled. In your opinion, we are all citizens of the United States. It doesn’t matter if you are here legally, or you slithered across the border today. Everyone who manages to enter this country illegally, or overstay a visa should be accorded the same rights and privileges, and have earned the right to remain in this country indefinitely -- the exception being, illegal aliens with prior convictions.

Will you admit that there are millions of illegal alien violent criminals with no arrest record or conviction? There are many fleeing rape and murder charges in their countries of origin that remain free and undetected. How should we deal with them? How will we even know who they are, or where they are? If we are unable to identify ALL illegal aliens who may pose a threat to the general public, we would in fact unwittingly legalize perhaps millions of dangerous criminals. How do you suggest we handle this group of ‘model’ illegals? Remember, if they haven’t been arrested or convicted of a crime, they would be categorized as being eligible for legalization, notwithstanding the threat they pose to society.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 09:01 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,709,656 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
1. current economic considerations (massive rehiring and firing, taxable sales, amount of money in social security)

I am unsure what massive rehiring and firing has to do with illegal immigration. I assume you consider the sales tax they pay and contributions to SS to be net positives, but I suspect they are more than offset by the costs of free medical care, the costs of educating their children who are in the US illegally, loss of property values in neighborhoods where clown houses open, increased auto insurance rates because of uninsured drivers, free school meals, the costs of ESL and remedial education and other expenses.

What do you think deportation will do? Massive firing and hiring. The think about healthy people is that they are more useful than sick people. So economically speaking, it's cheaper to allow them medical treatment than not go to work. Education of their children contribute to assimilation and increasing income of subsequent generations. As for the clown houses, it really didn't matter during the boom in CA. Hence why SilverLake, Echo Park, South Park, Mid-Wilshire BLEW up during the boom. Insurance companies are bastards (and I'm in insurance), trust me, rate will not decrease. Education again is cost that pays for itself.


2. political considerations (how do we treat illegals while still being on good terms with Mexico, esp. now more than ever we do need friends in this world)

I can guarantee you that we treat Mexican illegals far better than they treat anyone who enters Mexico illegally. Frankly, I see no reason why we should seek to be on good terms with a nation that habitually dumps it's poor people on us, complains bitterly when we send them back and throws a tantrum when we talk about securing our border. With friends like that, who need enemies?

We are not exactly loved around the world. The last thing we need is a neighbor that hates us. You know the whole, the enemy of my enemy is my friend...Well consider it from that POV.

3. social (human rights, what are basic rights, what type of message do we want to sent the world)

Illegal aliens have more rights and receive better treatment here than many do in their home countries. Basic rights? What's your idea of a basic right? The right to illegally squat in a country of your choosing and demand citizenship? The message that we send to the world is that we are suckers, we can be easily duped and taken advantage of. All you need to do is lay on a little guilt. That's why illegal aliens keep heading for El Norte and Uncle Sucker, I mean Uncle Sam. You can't possibly think they actually appreciate any of the things that they get here, do you?

Again, people don't base their arguments on the fact that they are here interacting with society. So, with them being here, we do need to keep them well and educated for our society to survive. Also, the message that we continuously send to the world is that we're hypocritical. We force other people to accept others, then we get mad in our own country.



Kindly elaborate.



Do you understand that a) poor American citizens and legal residents and b) poor illegal aliens are two different groups? It does not matter if they both use the same services, one is here legally and the other is not. We do not exist in some sort of Global Tribal Village no matter how fervently you wish we did. We have a duty to help poor Americans and legal residents. Mexico and their other home countries have a duty to help their citizens residing illegally in the US.

They are the same group...again there is no tangible difference. They are in the same subsect of society. This is not some Global Tribal Village. But this is actuality. Go down to the ghettos of LA, tell me what you see. You will see interactions of poor citizens and poor illegal immigrants. The reason? Well, they are in the same boat. They constitute the poor of this nation. So do you get how regardless of immigration status poor is poor in the United States and that they currently are a part of our society. If they were not a part of this society, we would not be on this forum right now.
No, they are not part of our society any more than the Nazis were part of Dutch society after they overran the Netherlands. Both foreign invaders and illegal aliens have entered into other countries and taken up residence unwanted and uninvited.

The US is a sovereign nation and we have the right to decide who comes into our country. We are not the flophouse for the world. We have an immigration policy that allows for fair, controlled, limited immigration. Our immigration policy is designed to best serve the interests of the American people, just as Canada's immigration policy seeks to allow controlled immigration that will benefit Canadian citizens. If Mexico or other countries are dissatisfied with our immigration policies, that is unfortunate but not something anyone should lose sleep over.

There is a very tangible difference between poor US citizens and legal residents and poor illegal immigrants. It is something called US citizenship and I do not believe I have ever encountered anyone who regards US citizenship as irrelevant as you do. It is truly unfortunate that we do not screen potential immigrants more carefully than we do.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 09:07 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,921 times
Reputation: 822
No, they are not part of our society any more than the Nazis were part of Dutch society after they overran the Netherlands. Both foreign invaders and illegal aliens have entered into other countries and taken up residence unwanted and uninvited.

Really poor analogy. Nazis in the Netherlands were soldiers trying to take over. The illegal immigrants are workers wanting to obtain the American dream. They work, eat, sleep, etc. here. Hence are a part of our society.

The US is a sovereign nation and we have the right to decide who comes into our country. We are not the flophouse for the world. We have an immigration policy that allows for fair, controlled, limited immigration. Our immigration policy is designed to best serve the interests of the American people, just as Canada's immigration policy seeks to allow controlled immigration that will benefit Canadian citizens. If Mexico or other countries are dissatisfied with our immigration policies, that is unfortunate but not something anyone should lose sleep over.

Not really fair, nor obviously not controlled immigration. I'm simply stating that we do need to look at all aspects to this debate.

There is a very tangible difference between poor US citizens and legal residents and poor illegal immigrants. It is something called US citizenship and I do not believe I have ever encountered anyone who regards US citizenship as irrelevant as you do. It is truly unfortunate that we do not screen potential immigrants more carefully than we do.

Can you touch citzenship? Can you eat citizenship? Can you grap citizenship? It's not a tangible.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 09:11 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,921 times
Reputation: 822
Ok, we have that settled. In your opinion, we are all citizens of the United States. It doesn’t matter if you are here legally, or you slithered across the border today. Everyone who manages to enter this country illegally, or overstay a visa should be accorded the same rights and privileges, and have earned the right to remain in this country indefinitely -- the exception being, illegal aliens with prior convictions.

I stated that we should amnesty. Yes.

Will you admit that there are millions of illegal alien violent criminals with no arrest record or conviction? There are many fleeing rape and murder charges in their countries of origin that remain free and undetected. How should we deal with them? How will we even know who they are, or where they are? If we are unable to identify ALL illegal aliens who may pose a threat to the general public, we would in fact unwittingly legalize perhaps millions of dangerous criminals. How do you suggest we handle this group of ‘model’ illegals? Remember, if they haven’t been arrested or convicted of a crime, they would be categorized as being eligible for legalization, notwithstanding the threat they pose to society.

Millions...no. There are no numbers to support this claim. Also, if they were arrested and convicted in the US, we will know. If they do indeed go through the cracks, just like legal residents, they will eventually get caught and dealt with in the appropriate manner. Again, remember the incarceration rates of Hispanics is rougly at the national average. Coupled with the fact that immigrants are less likely to commit a violent crime, (including illegal immigrants), it seems that the risk of crime is lower.
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