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Old 05-27-2009, 03:33 PM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,894,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
I think this awesome, if this is true finally some immigration policy that follows common sense. Get the real criminals out of here and leave the rest.
If you IA's had your way, we'd be a replica of mexico. Anyone who breaks the law, specifically those who enter this country without permission is a real criminal. End of story, end of discussion.
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:54 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,709,656 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
I think this awesome, if this is true finally some immigration policy that follows common sense. Get the real criminals out of here and leave the rest.

How exactly is this going to benefit the typical US citizen? I know it is a great deal for the illegal aliens and I am can see why people with illegal alien relatives are all in favor of it. How is granting amnesty/path to citizenship to millions of illegal aliens going to benefit me and my family? How is this going to benefit me right now? I don't care if their grandchildren might become rocket scientists 20 years from now. How will this benefit me in the next 5 years?
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDubsMom View Post
If you IA's had your way, we'd be a replica of mexico. Anyone who breaks the law, specifically those who enter this country without permission is a real criminal. End of story, end of discussion.
The DREAMies are delusional; as usual
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:59 PM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,894,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
The DREAMies are delusional; as usual
They really are aren't they? But then again all you have to do is read some of their posts to know that the majority of them haven't lived in the real world for quite some time. If they weren't so arrogant and delusional I'd feel sorry for them.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
I think this awesome, if this is true finally some immigration policy that follows common sense. Get the real criminals out of here and leave the rest.
How will we determine who the so-called real criminals are? Shall we wait until they rape or murder, or molest a child?
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,174,483 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
How will we determine who the so-called real criminals are? Shall we wait until they rape or murder, or molest a child?
Of course, thats how you determine who the real U.S. citizens criminals are, why should it be any different for illegal aliens. I don't think we have a pre-crime division just yet ( ref. Minority Report). Someone is not a criminal until they commit a crime.

Or do you support assuming that every illegal alien is a murderer/rapist/child molester until proven innocent? I think the U.S. justice system has the premise that "everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty" at it's very core.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
Of course, thats how you determine who the real U.S. citizens criminals are, why should it be any different for illegal aliens. I don't think we have a pre-crime division just yet ( ref. Minority Report). Someone is not a criminal until they commit a crime.

Or do you support assuming that every illegal alien is a murderer/rapist/child molester until proven innocent? I think the U.S. justice system has the premise that "everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty" at it's very core.
Wrong again! We have no choice but to tolerate our homegrown miscreants. However, we DO NOT have to wait to have our citizens raped, murdered, or molested by illegal aliens. If they are here illegally, they are already "guilty" and we have every right to deport them.
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Old 05-27-2009, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,174,483 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
How exactly is this going to benefit the typical US citizen? I know it is a great deal for the illegal aliens and I am can see why people with illegal alien relatives are all in favor of it. How is granting amnesty/path to citizenship to millions of illegal aliens going to benefit me and my family? How is this going to benefit me right now? I don't care if their grandchildren might become rocket scientists 20 years from now. How will this benefit me in the next 5 years?
A larger workforce, I don't have the time right now but I am going to prepare a chart of Population (or Workforce) vs GDP, (maybe there is one laying around on the internet). To see if the GDP scales up with the amount of people in the country, and the normalize to a per-capita amount.

"How is granting amnesty/path to citizenship to millions of illegal aliens going to benefit me and my family? How is this going to benefit me right now?"

1) You are not going to have a lot of illegals around you anymore, now they will be legal.
2) Since now they have to report their wages properly, they will be taxed like everyone else so you don't have to support them anymore.
3) Since they will have a SSN, when they go to the hospital and get an expensive service they will have to pay for it, just like everyone else would.
4) If you work for a low paying job, and right now an illegal has the upper hand for it since he (as you guys argue) doesn't pay taxes, now you will be at a level playing field because now they have to pay taxes as well
5) Since now they are properly documented, those that commit crimes ( since they are legal now they are no longer criminals ) would be properly handled. If they commit a bad enough crime they will be shipped back (notice that the amount being shipped back will be a smaller, more manageable amount, and it's a lot harder to defend why a rapist is being deported than why a head of household who has a clean record and does volunteer work for his church is being deported)
6) Once the economy recovers, ( and it will, I don't know of anyone (in real life) who thinks we are screwed and we are not getting out of this one) the demand for the workers will be there, unemployment will be lower and you might not need to compete as hard for a job.

And I still find it a little hard to believe though, how can an uneducated individual can compete for the same job as a person in the U.S. who has had free K-12 education, plus a barrage of scholarships and loans to pay for college, and free graduate school for those wanting do a Ph.D. degree ( most Ph.D.'s do not have to pay for their schooling, your advisor should be paying for it). I would think that the jobs that these two individuals are looking for are radically different.

I see how in a down economy, it might be similar since a lot of people are out of work and you do have to bring food and cover for your family no matter what you have to work as. But, what happens on the up turn, when you decide that you no longer want to work as a Janitor because that CPA certification that you got a few years back was what you really wanted to do. Someone still has to be the Janitor.

I do got to say though, I hate to make any kind of argument that is as shortsighted as this post. I am more of someone who is likely to sacrifice the present for a better future. A lot of people don't agree but that happens quite a bit.
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Old 05-27-2009, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,174,483 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Wrong again! We have no choice but to tolerate our homegrown miscreants. However, we DO NOT have to wait to have our citizens raped, murdered, or molested by illegal aliens. If they are here illegally, they are already "guilty" and we have every right to deport them.
This counter-argument is getting really old, and weakening by the post. What other reason other than the fact that they are here illegally ( that well could be fixed by legalizing them ) would support treating them any different than the U.S. Justice System treats anyone else.

Even though it might not look like it, I do really try to come up with new and exciting arguments. I would like to be afforded the same courtesy. In most threads someone has to reply, but... "They here illegally"

I don't know if someone watched Jon Steward's show a few nights ago where the only reason the English guy would cite was: but.. "He is gay". This seems awfully like it.
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Old 05-27-2009, 06:19 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,709,656 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
A larger workforce, I don't have the time right now but I am going to prepare a chart of Population (or Workforce) vs GDP, (maybe there is one laying around on the internet). To see if the GDP scales up with the amount of people in the country, and the normalize to a per-capita amount.

"How is granting amnesty/path to citizenship to millions of illegal aliens going to benefit me and my family? How is this going to benefit me right now?"

1) You are not going to have a lot of illegals around you anymore, now they will be legal.
2) Since now they have to report their wages properly, they will be taxed like everyone else so you don't have to support them anymore.
3) Since they will have a SSN, when they go to the hospital and get an expensive service they will have to pay for it, just like everyone else would.
4) If you work for a low paying job, and right now an illegal has the upper hand for it since he (as you guys argue) doesn't pay taxes, now you will be at a level playing field because now they have to pay taxes as well
5) Since now they are properly documented, those that commit crimes ( since they are legal now they are no longer criminals ) would be properly handled. If they commit a bad enough crime they will be shipped back (notice that the amount being shipped back will be a smaller, more manageable amount, and it's a lot harder to defend why a rapist is being deported than why a head of household who has a clean record and does volunteer work for his church is being deported)
6) Once the economy recovers, ( and it will, I don't know of anyone (in real life) who thinks we are screwed and we are not getting out of this one) the demand for the workers will be there, unemployment will be lower and you might not need to compete as hard for a job.

And I still find it a little hard to believe though, how can an uneducated individual can compete for the same job as a person in the U.S. who has had free K-12 education, plus a barrage of scholarships and loans to pay for college, and free graduate school for those wanting do a Ph.D. degree ( most Ph.D.'s do not have to pay for their schooling, your advisor should be paying for it). I would think that the jobs that these two individuals are looking for are radically different.

I see how in a down economy, it might be similar since a lot of people are out of work and you do have to bring food and cover for your family no matter what you have to work as. But, what happens on the up turn, when you decide that you no longer want to work as a Janitor because that CPA certification that you got a few years back was what you really wanted to do. Someone still has to be the Janitor.

I do got to say though, I hate to make any kind of argument that is as shortsighted as this post. I am more of someone who is likely to sacrifice the present for a better future. A lot of people don't agree but that happens quite a bit.
Been there, done that. We sacrificed in 1986 when we granted amnesty to over 3 million illegals. We knew that these were largely poorly educated, unskilled people who would continue to require government assistance of some sort. We were assured that this would be a one time amnesty and it would solve the problem of illegal immigration, so We the People went along with it, some very reluctantly. Twenty plus years later nothing of the sort has happened. The problem of illegal immigration has not been solved at all. We have a minimum of four times the illegals we had back then with no end in sight. Amnesty/path to citizenship/ whatever did not result in a 'better future' in 1986 and there is no reason to think the result will be any different this time. We all know that we will not secure the border because of the outcry from the ethnic advocacy groups and the Mexican government, so there is nothing to stop additional millions from streaming across in search of their 'American Dream' having somehow concluded that they are entitled to it. Our 'better future' will consist of endlessly being inundated with needy citizens from poor countries, which will in no way improve life for the average American.

1.That will only be true until the next crop of illegal shows up to await their amnesty

2.The majority are not going to earn enough to pay much, if anything, in taxes. They are still going to require government assistance. Why do you think 3 families live in a two bedroom apartment now? Making them legal is not going to suddenly catapult them into the middle class.

3.They are not going to pay. Most will earn so little that they will be on Medicaid which means everyone else pays.

4. A level playing field is good.

5. Give me a break.

6. What are we supposed to do until the economy magically springs back to life? Are they all going to be collecting unemployment?

Look, I can see no benefit in granting citizenship by whatever means to millions of poorly educated, unskilled illegal aliens. This is a great deal for them and a real bad deal for American citizens.
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