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Old 06-01-2009, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,175,488 times
Reputation: 137

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaerin View Post
Mechanized construction? I think not. Too many variables when building. And their work is not the same as ours. I have seen houses literally fall down that were built by illegals. I have also lived in the same house that myself and my grandfather built when I was 10. And not a single crack in the drywall or ceiling.
I bet the people who used to build cars said the exact same thing. It's a matter of time, when the economics problem meets the technological solution things will change, like with everything else.

About the quality of work, you do have a point there, they might not be as good as the ones you used to make, but the premium of it is too much for your regular buyer to bear. But again, have you never seen a house built by a U.S. worker fall down? The probability difference is for the company to calculate when hiring illegal aliens. If the company does not take this into account at some point they will get destroyed by a law suit.


Quote:
Illegals depress the hourly wage. It is that simple. Then Americans have no choice but to take the job at a depressed rate or have no job.
No choice but to take the job at the market rate, a wage that match his skills, I fail to see why this is unfair.


Quote:
This is why Mexico's classes are so separated. This is why America's classes are also becoming widely separated.
I guess this is where I will likely clash ( even further ) with many people. But I do not feel uncomfortable with widely separated classes, as long as the factors that regulates the mobility between these classes are merit and education. And everyone has access to it.

Quote:

Spin it how you want Kellem, Illegals are bad MMMkay?
They do are bad, but just for people who fail to realize the real value of their own skills.
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Old 06-01-2009, 01:41 PM
 
Location: The Wine Country, CA
807 posts, read 1,117,416 times
Reputation: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
Why does my argument contradict that the U.S. is the land of the opportunity? The U.S. is not the land of the entitlement, the construction workers can educate themselves and take advantage of the opportunities have to offer, opportunities don't come to you, you have to go look for them, and once you find them you have to be prepared to take advantage of them.

Why (other than the fact that they are illegal) should a business owned pay a U.S. worker 2 to 3 times as much as he has to for the same job?
The job gets done the same. (A previous poster gave a counter example that the houses were not built the same. Then the company is willing to bear the liability of the incompetence of the worker. Exactly similar as when hiring someone new and inexperienced)

then who constructs here? Are you willing to pay the 2 to 3 times for the labour when buying a house just to know that it was a U.S. citizen building it? I don't, as long as it's build correctly I could not care less who built it.

The stockholders win too, and a lot of companies are publicly traded. So you ( the U.S. worker) can win too, you just need to stop buying stuff you don't need, invest in education and progressively buy a growing part of the companies.


Only the ones who grow complacent. But that was their own fault.

Hardly, if they considered were what would be their motivations of coming here. they would just leave. Or stop working and live on welfare ( as some of the posters in this forum seem to really like to point out )

What happened to those billions of money remittances to Mexico? I bet they help, at least a little bit. Don't think so?

Elaborate please.
So basically you are placing the blame on U.S. citizens for illegal aliens displacing them in their jobs.. Maybe if U.S. citizens DIDN'T pay taxes maybe there would be more money to invest in Education.. (and didn't support Illegal Aliens with these tax dollars)..

The U.S. is NOT the land of entitlement I agree with you there.. Which means, that people are NOT entitled the break the law and come into the U.S. illegally.. People that are in this country illegally should not be ENTITLED to college financial aid or any type of assistance in tuition, etc.. On the flip side, Employers should NOT be ENTITLED to hire people that are in this country illegally in order to undercut the wages of the American worker..

The Remittances sent to Mexico obviously are NOT empowering the Mexican people to stand up for their rights against their government.. It seems that Illegal Immigration is still taking place in mass numbers.. If Remittances have helped the Mexican economy so much then why does Illegal Immigration still exist?

The Race to the bottom where only stockholders and CEO's matter has led to this economic collapse with record high unemployment that is currently being experienced in the U.S...

By your standards, that it is the American Workers' fault that they are displaced by an Illegal Alien and are not able to make ends meet, maybe the flip side of the coin should apply to illegal aliens who are arrested in ICE raids or ones that are injured or worse trying to cross the border.. "It's their Own Fault!".. Obviously, that attitude CAN go both ways..
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Old 06-01-2009, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,175,488 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
Anything that suppresses wages is bad.
So mass production, automation, globalization are all bad?

Why should people be paid more than what their skills are worthed?

It's just a demand vs. supply problem. If you want to make more money, then learn skills that have a lower supply or that are in higher demand. Or even better, both. Keep an "eagle's eye" on your career and make sure you don't get left out behind.
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Old 06-01-2009, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,822,205 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
Why does my argument contradict that the U.S. is the land of the opportunity? The U.S. is not the land of the entitlement, the construction workers can educate themselves and take advantage of the opportunities have to offer, opportunities don't come to you, you have to go look for them, and once you find them you have to be prepared to take advantage of them.
Educate themselves? The U.S. workers were skilled, while the illegals are unskilled. How does one educate oneself to become unskilled?
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Old 06-01-2009, 01:48 PM
 
Location: The Wine Country, CA
807 posts, read 1,117,416 times
Reputation: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
So mass production, automation, globalization are all bad?

Why should people be paid more than what their skills are worthed?

It's just a demand vs. supply problem. If you want to make more money, then learn skills that have a lower supply or that are in higher demand. Or even better, both. Keep an "eagle's eye" on your career and make sure you don't get left out behind.
Let me guess.. you read the book, "The World is Flat" huh?..

So, you believe in compassion for Illegal Aliens that infiltrate the U.S. but not for the American workers that pay taxes and have to sacrifice in order for the illegals to be able to take advantage of those benefits..

Globalization is a sham! Only a select few become obscenely rich meanwhile millions of others continue to live in poverty creating a permanent underclass..
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Old 06-01-2009, 01:49 PM
 
Location: The Wine Country, CA
807 posts, read 1,117,416 times
Reputation: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Educate themselves? The U.S. workers were skilled, while the illegals are unskilled. How does one educate oneself to become unskilled?
Awesome articulation of what I was thinking of saying.. !!!
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Old 06-01-2009, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,175,488 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by bipolarpunk View Post
So basically you are placing the blame on U.S. citizens for illegal aliens displacing them in their jobs.. Maybe if U.S. citizens DIDN'T pay taxes maybe there would be more money to invest in Education.. (and didn't support Illegal Aliens with these tax dollars)..
So you would tell me that someone out of high school, in the U.S. has no options to go continue his education? The only workers who are competing for jobs with illegal aliens are the ones with the low end jobs. Had the individual prepared himself appropriately his would not be the case.

Before it used to be fine, because people could sustain paying him more than he was worthed, but not anymore. And illegal aliens are willing to do the jobs.

Quote:
The U.S. is NOT the land of entitlement I agree with you there.. Which means, that people are NOT entitled the break the law and come into the U.S. illegally.. People that are in this country illegally should not be ENTITLED to college financial aid or any type of assistance in tuition, etc.. On the flip side, Employers should NOT be ENTITLED to hire people that are in this country illegally in order to undercut the wages of the American worker..
They are not entitled, they are taking that opportunity on themselves. if caught they get deported, if employers are caught they get fined. They are not entitled, they are working for it themselves.

Quote:
The Remittances sent to Mexico obviously are NOT empowering the Mexican people to stand up for their rights against their government.. It seems that Illegal Immigration is still taking place in mass numbers.. If Remittances have helped the Mexican economy so much then why does Illegal Immigration still exist?
What do you think? Mexico is not happy about the amount of money being injected into their economy? Why do you think Mexican officials support the illegal immigrants? By coming here, they are helping make Mexico a better place in relation to the U.S.

Quote:
The Race to the bottom where only stockholders and CEO's matter has led to this economic collapse with record high unemployment that is currently being experienced in the U.S...

By your standards, that it is the American Workers' fault that they are displaced by an Illegal Alien and are not able to make ends meet, maybe the flip side of the coin should apply to illegal aliens who are arrested in ICE raids or ones that are injured or worse trying to cross the border.. "It's their Own Fault!".. Obviously, that attitude CAN go both ways..
I agree with you on both sides of the coin, U.S. workers inability to make ends meet is due to their resistance to furthering their skills, and people arrested in raids is their own doing, they took the risk and lost, so they get deported, run back in a try it again. If an illegal alien did not plan well, and decided to cross the desert with too little water, or without a map and run out or got lost, then whose fault it is but the illegal aliens'.

Now, if someone comes around and decides it's a good day to shoot illegal aliens, gets his sniper rifle and starts snipping people, that's a whole different ball game.
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Old 06-01-2009, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,175,488 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Educate themselves? The U.S. workers were skilled, while the illegals are unskilled. How does one educate oneself to become unskilled?
You were trained to be a Teacher, right Benicar? you probably saw an opportunity to go do I.T.

Maybe this is not the case for you, but most teachers do not have the training to do I.T. specially for a high paying I.T. job.

So you trained yourself in I.T., it took some effort from your part to became eligible to that I.T. position that became available.

Even in I.T. you probably have seen many jobs that were done in-house get outsourced. And to keep yourself well remunerated and employable you have had to learn new skills and new technologies that give you an advantage compared to your peers.

What I mean by educating themselves here is exactly the same. The example you give here is ridiculous, then you would be competing or the same jobs, you educate yourself to be eligible for new jobs, all those illegal aliens are going to need to know where to build that wall, what is the right concrete mix to properly support that building, what kind of steel is needed in certain locations. if you educate yourself better, you weatherproof your career for when some uneducated individual knocks on the door claiming that he can do the same thing you do for a lower price.
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Old 06-01-2009, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,175,488 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by bipolarpunk View Post
Let me guess.. you read the book, "The World is Flat" huh?..
between many, yes, why?

Quote:

So, you believe in compassion for Illegal Aliens that infiltrate the U.S. but not for the American workers that pay taxes and have to sacrifice in order for the illegals to be able to take advantage of those benefits..
Remember, I do not support any of the social services, if it was up to me several would get cut to illegals and U.S. citizens alike. I do support everyone having the same opportunity to succeed no matter where they come from or their legal status.

Quote:
Globalization is a sham! Only a select few become obscenely rich meanwhile millions of others continue to live in poverty creating a permanent underclass..
I don't think Globalization is a sham, and I think it's rather unstoppable. Specially with the ease of communication and high mobility of people and resources is just bound to happen. Remember that borders are just artificial boundaries.

Now I would completely disagree with a class system that is based in family lineage, feudal properties, or other similar non-merit instruments. But one that is based on merit and education, that tries afford new individuals a levelled playing field, I have no problem with.
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Old 06-01-2009, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,822,205 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
So you would tell me that someone out of high school, in the U.S. has no options to go continue his education? The only workers who are competing for jobs with illegal aliens are the ones with the low end jobs. Had the individual prepared himself appropriately his would not be the case.

Before it used to be fine, because people could sustain paying him more than he was worthed, but not anymore. And illegal aliens are willing to do the jobs.
ALL are not college material. Therefore, some have no choice but to work low-wage jobs. So tell me, what is an uneducated U.S. worker supposed to do, when all of the jobs they qualify for are being given to illegal aliens who are willing to work for wages only a slave would enjoy? Remember, a U.S. worker is entitled to at least minimum wage; while an illegal will work for $2/hr if necessary.

Who do you think an unscrupulous employer will hire? Someone who by law MUST be paid at least $7.25/hr effective July 2009 (higher in some states), plus pay taxes and required insurances; or, pay $2/hr and no taxes, insurance, or benefits? A U.S. worker simply cannot compete against dirt cheap illegal labor. Of course, having illegal family and friends would tend to cloud one’s judgment.
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