U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-01-2009, 03:34 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,716,734 times
Reputation: 1285

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
So you would tell me that someone out of high school, in the U.S. has no options to go continue his education? The only workers who are competing for jobs with illegal aliens are the ones with the low end jobs. Had the individual prepared himself appropriately his would not be the case.

Before it used to be fine, because people could sustain paying him more than he was worthed, but not anymore. And illegal aliens are willing to do the jobs.
What if a HS educated American happens to enjoy working as a roofer? Or a carpenter? What is being implied is that every US citizen and legal resident needs to further their education and get out of the way so masses of poorly educated Third World peasants can flood in and take their jobs. If an actual American wants to work in construction for whatever reason, he should be able to do so. How do you know what a skilled drywaller or bricklayer is worth? You have no clue. Furthermore, the problem is not what construction workers were paid, the problem is that hordes of illegal aliens have moved into the US and are displacing Americans. No illegals= Americans with jobs.


Quote:
They are not entitled, they are taking that opportunity on themselves. if caught they get deported, if employers are caught they get fined. They are not entitled, they are working for it themselves.
They sure as he11 seem to think they are entitled when they show up in an ER or drop their ineducable offspring off at the neighborhood school.


Quote:
What do you think? Mexico is not happy about the amount of money being injected into their economy? Why do you think Mexican officials support the illegal immigrants? By coming here, they are helping make Mexico a better place in relation to the U.S.
Mexico is supposedly bettering itself at our expense. They need to learn to deal with their own problems instead of always turning to us to bail them out. It is not my fault their country is a mess.


Quote:
I agree with you on both sides of the coin, U.S. workers inability to make ends meet is due to their resistance to furthering their skills, and people arrested in raids is their own doing, they took the risk and lost, so they get deported, run back in a try it again. If an illegal alien did not plan well, and decided to cross the desert with too little water, or without a map and run out or got lost, then whose fault it is but the illegal aliens'.
Come tell me about it when your IT job gets outsourced. Oh, wait! You are not a US worker.

Quote:
Now, if someone comes around and decides it's a good day to shoot illegal aliens, gets his sniper rifle and starts snipping people, that's a whole different ball game.
The amount of restraint that has been shown by the American people thus far is nothing short of amazing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-01-2009, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,831,384 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
You were trained to be a Teacher, right Benicar? you probably saw an opportunity to go do I.T.

Maybe this is not the case for you, but most teachers do not have the training to do I.T. specially for a high paying I.T. job.

So you trained yourself in I.T., it took some effort from your part to became eligible to that I.T. position that became available.

Even in I.T. you probably have seen many jobs that were done in-house get outsourced. And to keep yourself well remunerated and employable you have had to learn new skills and new technologies that give you an advantage compared to your peers.

What I mean by educating themselves here is exactly the same. The example you give here is ridiculous, then you would be competing or the same jobs, you educate yourself to be eligible for new jobs, all those illegal aliens are going to need to know where to build that wall, what is the right concrete mix to properly support that building, what kind of steel is needed in certain locations. if you educate yourself better, you weatherproof your career for when some uneducated individual knocks on the door claiming that he can do the same thing you do for a lower price.
I am NOT a teacher. I repeat, I am NOT a teacher. I told you this not two days ago when you thought I worked in IT. Thus, NOTHING you posted is applicable.

Be advised, I will only divulge as much personal information as I choose. Had I wanted you to know my profession, my age, my weight, my favorite colors, or anything else, you would already be privy to said info.

I will say this, I am not a low-wage earner, nor am I uneducated. Furthermore, any highly compensated IT professional would love my compensation package. So you can refrain from your pathetic, and quite frankly, embarrassing attempts, to belittle Benicar -- the lowly peon.

BTW, if not for a “teacher,” where would you be?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-01-2009, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,176,095 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
ALL are not college material. Therefore, some have no choice but to work low-wage jobs. So tell me, what is an uneducated U.S. worker supposed to do, when all of the jobs they qualify for are being given to illegal aliens who are willing to work for wages only a slave would enjoy? Remember, a U.S. worker is entitled to at least minimum wage; while an illegal will work for $2/hr if necessary.
What do you mean? are you saying that some people are not physically/mentally capable of going to college? There are very many degree's in college, to exploit the different aspects of each individual. I refuse to believe that an individual lacks the ability to better himself. And that some people who are not college "material", as you mention, are not capable of doing anything but the lowest jobs.

I don't know many illegals who are willing to work for $2/hr an hour, you might have a larger group of friends who does, but I know that the places that hire illegals would have to give them at least a wage they can live in, otherwise.. well.. they would die.. and they would not be able to send money back to their country in billions. It an illegal can live in the wage that is being given why could a U.S. citizen not. Do they lack the ability to make ends meet that illegals have? I think not.


Quote:

Who do you think an unscrupulous employer will hire? Someone who by law MUST be paid at least $7.25/hr effective July 2009 (higher in some states), plus pay taxes and required insurances; or, pay $2/hr and no taxes, insurance, or benefits? A U.S. worker simply cannot compete against dirt cheap illegal labor. Of course, having illegal family and friends would tend to cloud one’s judgment.
First, again I don't know of anyone willing to work for under minimum wage, Illegal or not, and if I'm not mistake people working at fast food places, that I know, get paid at least minimum wage. So I would assume that the penalty for paying under minimum wage is greater than hiring an illegal. I doubt this would change after the minimum wage is increased, so this argument would be a mute point.

And as I have mentioned before (and you seem to bring in every post as a ad hominem argument) I do have friends who are illegal aliens, and it does weight in my opinion, just as much as not having them weights on yours.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-01-2009, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Where laws can be ignored due to political correctness
1,111 posts, read 1,584,094 times
Reputation: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
And as I have mentioned before (and you seem to bring in every post as a ad hominem argument) I do have friends who are illegal aliens, and it does weight in my opinion, just as much as not having them weights on yours.
Just out of curiosity, where did you, Kellem, emigrate from?

Does your birth place's government willingly subsidize illegal aliens?

Last edited by antireconquista; 06-01-2009 at 04:07 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-01-2009, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,176,095 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
What if a HS educated American happens to enjoy working as a roofer? Or a carpenter? What is being implied is that every US citizen and legal resident needs to further their education and get out of the way so masses of poorly educated Third World peasants can flood in and take their jobs. If an actual American wants to work in construction for whatever reason, he should be able to do so. How do you know what a skilled drywaller or bricklayer is worth? You have no clue. Furthermore, the problem is not what construction workers were paid, the problem is that hordes of illegal aliens have moved into the US and are displacing Americans. No illegals= Americans with jobs.
I they enjoy being a roofer, or a carpenter they can do it, but when making that decision they have to take into consideration what kind of wages they are going to get when doing so. If I wanted to be a professional video game player, I would not expect to get paid much if any, until I am at the top of the players.

How much a skilled drywaller or bricklayer is worth, just like anything else, is worthed as much as people are willing to pay for it. Too expensive demand fails, too cheap supply fails.


An easy example is a artisan carpenter, now you can get really cheap furniture form across the world so the worth of an average carpenter who makes furniture has extremely devalued. Should the U.S. carpenter be paid more for it because he is the U.S. and thinks he is worthed more..No.
But he really likes to do carpentry, then he can but he will know what he's getting into and maybe make some special handmade stuff for the people who are willing to pay the premium.


Quote:

They sure as he11 seem to think they are entitled when they show up in an ER or drop their ineducable offspring off at the neighborhood school.
They feel entitled because they have been let. I still say, if you use a service then you have to pay for it. If legalized that same person would be fiscally responsible for the treatement he received.

Ineducable offispring? hardly, and if I was from Mexico, or I was in the situation who you use as an example I would take offence. Why would this offspring be any more/less educable than the offspring of a U.S. citizen.

Quote:
Mexico is supposedly bettering itself at our expense. They need to learn to deal with their own problems instead of always turning to us to bail them out. It is not my fault their country is a mess.
You guys always post, why don't they try to better their country. Well, they are.



Quote:
Come tell me about it when your IT job gets outsourced. Oh, wait! You are not a US worker.
I worked I.T. for 6 years, got promoted 5 times during that time. 2 of times my whole department got outsourced, and I got sent out to train the people who was going to replace me. Do I oppose outsourcing? No. If I put myself on the shoes of the person who made the decision it likely made business sense. I still hold a fair amount of stock in that company, and I plan on keeping it, benefiting from the outsourcing.


Quote:
The amount of restraint that has been shown by the American people thus far is nothing short of amazing.
Ok..good
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-01-2009, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,176,095 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by antireconquista View Post
Just out of curiosity, where did you, Kellem, emigrate from?

Does your birth place's government willingly subsidize illegal aliens?
I emigrated from South America, I am not familiar with my countries social/immigration policies, but I think very few people get subsidized at all and when they do it's nowhere nearly as how it's here.

Historically, we have received immigrants from all over the world, how hard was it for them to get work, or legalize their status. I do not know.

Soon I'll get to have the time and clout to be involved in my birth's place politics as I will in the U.S.'s, in the mean time I can only educate myself to be more effective.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-01-2009, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,176,095 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I am NOT a teacher. I repeat, I am NOT a teacher. I told you this not two days ago when you thought I worked in IT. Thus, NOTHING you posted is applicable.

Be advised, I will only divulge as much personal information as I choose. Had I wanted you to know my profession, my age, my weight, my favorite colors, or anything else, you would already be privy to said info.

I will say this, I am not a low-wage earner, nor am I uneducated. Furthermore, any highly compensated IT professional would love my compensation package. So you can refrain from your pathetic, and quite frankly, embarrassing attempts, to belittle Benicar -- the lowly peon.

BTW, if not for a “teacher,” where would you be?
Fine we can call the person who I am talking about Benikar, a ficticius character.

And I did not belittle teacher, or I.T. people. I love my teachers, and i would love for them to get paid more, right now their conditions are substandard and they do a critical mission. And I pride myself from working I.T.

I think you completely missed my example, by taking my post as a personal attack, your last post suggests that you have some kind of inferiority complex where you think that people are always attacking you. I do not have the will to further elaborate on that example, if someone else needs clarification send me a PM.


PS: I though you (Benicar) had sent me a PM where you said you were in I.T. but it was from a different user and I got confused.

Last edited by Kellem; 06-01-2009 at 04:55 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-01-2009, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,831,384 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
What do you mean? are you saying that some people are not physically/mentally capable of going to college? There are very many degree's in college, to exploit the different aspects of each individual. I refuse to believe that an individual lacks the ability to better himself. And that some people who are not college "material", as you mention, are not capable of doing anything but the lowest jobs.

I don't know many illegals who are willing to work for $2/hr an hour, you might have a larger group of friends who does, but I know that the places that hire illegals would have to give them at least a wage they can live in, otherwise.. well.. they would die.. and they would not be able to send money back to their country in billions. It an illegal can live in the wage that is being given why could a U.S. citizen not. Do they lack the ability to make ends meet that illegals have? I think not.

First, again I don't know of anyone willing to work for under minimum wage, Illegal or not, and if I'm not mistake people working at fast food places, that I know, get paid at least minimum wage. So I would assume that the penalty for paying under minimum wage is greater than hiring an illegal. I doubt this would change after the minimum wage is increased, so this argument would be a mute point.

And as I have mentioned before (and you seem to bring in every post as a ad hominem argument) I do have friends who are illegal aliens, and it does weight in my opinion, just as much as not having them weights on yours.
Bottom line: Under NO circumstances should a U.S. citizen be forced to change occupations because greedy employers prefer cheap illegal labor.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-01-2009, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
2,075 posts, read 1,776,799 times
Reputation: 946
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
Anything that suppresses wages is bad.

Since our best option is the border fence we cannot build it fast or high enough. We also need to get serious about work place raids. Fine or jail the employer and deport the scab labor under cutting Americans desperate for work.
Smartest thing I have heard for a while. Reps. in the mail.

Nothing depresses wages more than Mexican illegal alien scabs. Doubt that ?? Take a good look at New Orleans, rebuilt ( and now falling apart) with illegal alien labor. Thank GWB for that mess. They wouldn't hire Americans, too expensive. Solution ?? Bus loads of illegals that are still there. Still doubt it ?? Check out Arkansas . Tyson and Wall-Mart have destroyed the job market with illegal alien labor.

Build the double fence. Make E-Verify the law and then deport all the scab labor.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-01-2009, 05:25 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,716,734 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
I they enjoy being a roofer, or a carpenter they can do it, but when making that decision they have to take into consideration what kind of wages they are going to get when doing so. If I wanted to be a professional video game player, I would not expect to get paid much if any, until I am at the top of the players.

How much a skilled drywaller or bricklayer is worth, just like anything else, is worthed as much as people are willing to pay for it. Too expensive demand fails, too cheap supply fails.
Demand didn't fall. People did not stop buying new houses. The problem is that the wages for construction workers were undercut by illegal aliens, people who are not supposed to be in the US. Once again, if an American wishes to work as a drywaller or bricklayer after having taken into consideration the pay, the work conditions, etc., then they should be able to do that. Their job is worth protecting. When we are forced to tolerate an illegal taking the job all we do is create additional problems. We now have the illegal working for lowball wages who in time will either drag over his family or create one in the US putting strain on our social services and we also now have an out of work US citizen who we must provide assistance. What do you think happens to these displaced US citizens? There are only so many jobs at the Gap and Starbucks and no one is hiring anyhow. What exactly are they supposed to retrain for? NO ONE IS HIRING. When a construction worker loses a job that previously paid enough to cover the bills, typically he and his family begin to lose ground financially. And what for? So we can enjoy the 'benefits' of millions of deadbeat illegals? No thanks. And don't even waste your time telling me they are not deadbeats, I know more about how they loot our healthcare system than you ever will.


Quote:
An easy example is a artisan carpenter, now you can get really cheap furniture form across the world so the worth of an average carpenter who makes furniture has extremely devalued. Should the U.S. carpenter be paid more for it because he is the U.S. and thinks he is worthed more..No.
But he really likes to do carpentry, then he can but he will know what he's getting into and maybe make some special handmade stuff for the people who are willing to pay the premium.
Fair enough. What about a roofer? His job cannot be outsourced. No one is going to start shipping fully shingled roofs from China to the US. If he loses a job, it is most likely because his wages were undercut by someone in the US illegally.


Quote:
They feel entitled because they have been let. I still say, if you use a service then you have to pay for it. If legalized that same person would be fiscally responsible for the treatement he received.
Once again, this underscores the total lack of a moral compass. Since I can get away with it, it is OK that I don't pay my bills. Do these people have any comprehension of the concept of right and wrong?

Quote:
Ineducable offispring? hardly, and if I was from Mexico, or I was in the situation who you use as an example I would take offence. Why would this offspring be any more/less educable than the offspring of a U.S. citizen.
That's too bad.

Quote:
You guys always post, why don't they try to better their country. Well, they are.
They are bettering their country by dumping all their poor and uneducated on the US. We then are forced to provide social services for them free of charge while they send their paychecks back to Mexico. If you are experiencing financial problems and you rob a bank, you haven't really solved your problem, now have you?

Quote:
I worked I.T. for 6 years, got promoted 5 times during that time. 2 of times my whole department got outsourced, and I got sent out to train the people who was going to replace me. Do I oppose outsourcing? No. If I put myself on the shoes of the person who made the decision it likely made business sense. I still hold a fair amount of stock in that company, and I plan on keeping it, benefiting from the outsourcing.


Ok..good

Last edited by andreabeth; 06-01-2009 at 06:07 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top