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Old 05-31-2009, 10:59 PM
 
709 posts, read 1,541,673 times
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Quote:
By our common language?
My parents are old enough to remember a time in the U.S when people were held together by a common language, you know in the "Leave It To Beaver" days. But that was before the U.S government thought it was a good idea to open the flood gates to millions of illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by thechicano View Post
Legal Hispanics, illegal Hispanics, American born Hispanics often live in the same communities. They are often "targeted" collectively by PR agencies of corporations. Whether they are legal or illegal has nothing to do with the whole language marketing thing.
You are making a distinction where there isn't one.


A Hispanic who overstays his visa isn't that different than a Hispanic who is still on his visa, at least in regards to businesses marketing to them, and their preference for Spanish.

I don't see how anyone could logically make that point..unless they believe "illegals" are a separate race that are inherently "bad people", so legals learn English, and illegals don't. That's another one of those pesky generalizations. In reality, it comes down to the individual. Some legals don't wholeheartedly accept English(of ANY race), some illegals will..especially those raised here most of their lives. And residing here without documents doesn't say as much about an individuals character as you guys make it out to be.

That's an example of how a legitimate issue is made emotional by you guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thechicano View Post
WEAK comparison. Most of the people in suburban Staten Island may be of Italian descent, but I'm sure most of those Italians are American. Maybe with immigrant roots in the city, but not Italian.

Meanwhile, when they WERE immigrants, you would hear lots of Italian in Little Italys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Look...I hate this whole ugly issue as much as you do..it affects me and my family....personally. But look at your OWN WORDS, above. We are a nation of LAWS, and little else..our LAWS are just about the only thing holding us together as a society...yet you say (ABOVE) THAT there's little difference between a LEGAL and an ILLEGAL Hispanic.....Well, that's GREAT, I suppose, if you're Hispanic....but how do you expect the REST of us to see that remark? As a matter of fact, that's exactly what so many people on this forum already suspect....that some 'Hispanics' will be tempted to put ethnic solidarity over the 'law of the land'. They'll see "little difference" between THEMSELVES, and illegals....well, I have news for you...some of the most disagreeable people on the forum say EXACTLY the same thing...they, too, see little difference between 'legals' and illegals.

Glad YOU said it, and not I...but seriously, with all respect to you....how would you expect this to sound to those on the forum who are NOT Hispanic? It's a fair question....
Quote:
Originally Posted by thechicano View Post
What the hell are you taking about?
I'm talking about businesses MARKETING to the Spanish-speaking public. WHEN IT COMES TO MARKETING, there isn't that much difference between legal and illegal Hispanics.
You know...not the law..the LANGUAGE?
You're rant against "ethnic solidarity" is misplaced. I would say that I must have hit a nerve, but it looks like that nerve's been in pain already, and you were just waiting for the first chance to vent about it. All the way from out of left field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thechicano View Post
And by the way, I see my country as more than just being held by "laws"
You don't sound like you have very much faith or pride in our country, and that's too bad. Your loss.
As usual, macmeal nailed it! On one hand, you see absolutely nothing wrong with businesses marketing to Hispanics as though they are one homogeneous group of non-English-speaking illegal aliens. After all, it’s business, and illegal aliens’ money spends just as well as Hispanic citizens. On the other hand, you vilify others for NOT distinguishing between legal and illegal. Well, I’m sorry, but you just can’t have it both ways.

Whether you like it or not, it DOES matter whether businesses deliberately target people whose mere presence is a flagrant violation of our laws. It DOES matter that their actions exacerbate the problem, and makes them complicit in this illegal alien invasion. Should we all simply ignore whatever laws, rules, and regulations we deem unfair or insignificant, if we can profit from doing so? I really don’t understand your rationale.

Would it also be ok for a pharmaceutical company to specifically target drunk drivers? Yes, it’s illegal to drive drunk, not to mention the enormous ramifications of being impaired while behind the wheel of a car. But, it’s a potentially lucrative market, so why not profit? If a pharmaceutical company developed a solution a drunk driver could slip under the tongue, capable of instantaneously lowering the blood alcohol concentration to a level lower than the legal limit; according to your “logic” they would be marketing geniuses. After all, it wouldn’t be an issue of the “law,” would it? A drunk driver is really no different than a sober driver. Right?

Attitudes such as yours facilitate illegal immigration. This is precisely the reason illegal aliens feel entitled in this county, and feel as though our laws are meaningless. As long as they are treated as though they belong here; as long as they are coddled and accommodated by having everything available to them in Spanish; as long as you and others continue to justify EVERYTHING they do, they will NEVER come to the realization that they are in fact illegal, and we do have a right to oppose them.

If the majority of Hispanic citizens are assimilated “Americans” and speak English, tell me, who the heck are the businesses and our government accommodating? If they aren’t assisting illegal aliens, then who are they assisting? They certainly haven’t gone to this extreme level of pandering to assist Spanish-speaking visa holders. If in fact most Hispanics in this country understand English, why do we even need to press 1 for English and 2 for Spanish? Perhaps you can enlighten us.

I hate to burst your bubble, but you did NOT “hit a nerve” in macmeal. He didn’t attack you, nor did he “rant.” He simply assessed your post in his usual eloquent and logical manner. On the other hand, he DID hit a nerve in you. Obviously, the truth is just too painful for you to accept. Face it, he read you with absolute precision.

Kudos, macmeal!
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Garland Texas
3,081 posts, read 6,602,628 times
Reputation: 2101
Any Illegal alien is TROUBLE, whether they be from Latin America, Asia, Africa, Antarctica or MARS.

If they would come in the LEGAL way and learn the language, not have 10 kids, not collect welfare, and not demand that we change our ways than they would be no trouble at all. The same request can be made for the ones that come here legally too, because sometimes the legal immigrants are just as much (if not more) trouble than the illegals.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:45 AM
 
3,071 posts, read 7,568,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bipolarpunk View Post
LEGALLY being the key word in AZ Bear's post.. LEGALLY, they did NOT sneak over a fence and cut in line ahead of millions of other immigrants that play by the rules, learn the language, and DESIRE to assimilate and be a part of America..

that's a straw man argument. that has nothing to do with the OP. the point is disruptiveness. what were the immigration laws back then? were there any?
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:54 AM
 
Location: The Wine Country, CA
807 posts, read 1,116,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macjr82 View Post
that's a straw man argument. that has nothing to do with the OP. the point is disruptiveness. what were the immigration laws back then? were there any?
The Point IS Illegal Immigration, which is why this topic was posted in the Illegal Immigration forum.. Talk about "Straw Man Argument".. Illegal Alien apologists seem to always want to argue that the ancestors of Legal U.S. citizens also came into this country Illegally as an excuse to try to justify the mass influx of poorly educated people that become a strain on our Social Services.. Which if you are trying to make the "back then" argument, there was NO Welfare, NO Food Stamps, NO Section 8 Housing, NO Taxpayer funded entitlements...

The settlers also did NOT bring Gangs, drugs, etc..

The suggestion that American citizens and legal immigrants that believe in having the law enforced regarding immigration laws are prejudiced is NOT the case as one may believe.. We have terrorists entering this country that commit identity theft, arrive with drug cartels, etc..
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macjr82 View Post
that's a straw man argument. that has nothing to do with the OP. the point is disruptiveness. what were the immigration laws back then? were there any?
The Irish had a very bad rep back then: that stated; it doe not change the fact that virtually all of them came here legally-----------unlike today's crop of loser troublemakers here illegally from mostly Mexico/Central America
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:47 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post

Kudos, macmeal!
Thanks....



Actually, we DO have a well-known attorney here in Southern Calif, who runs many radio ads, whose entire practice is (apparently) getting drunk drvers "off the hook". His skillfull manipulations are guaranteed to reduce....or even totally eliminate...and penalties the DUI might incur.....and he's not shy in telling us so.

Needless to say, most people don't have a lot of admiration for this particular branch of the legal profession. I'm sure it PAYS well, but I'm not sure how 'honorable' such a practice would be.

Last edited by macmeal; 06-01-2009 at 08:58 AM..
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:22 PM
 
3,071 posts, read 7,568,089 times
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My point is that yes ant influx of lower class citizens would have this effect and the latin americans weren't the first. yes the Irish immigrants did bring gangs, yes they were the recipient of social programs & charities of the day. That is my point. I'm not an apologist, I'm just saying the situation is not unique to latin america or to the present day.

below is an excerpt, but click the link for more info & do some research if you don't believe me. As a matter of fact, Gangs of New York, as much of a mess of movie it was did deal with real issues of the day w/ Irish immigration.

AmericanHeritage.com / America’s Worst Immigration War (http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/web/20061104-know-nothing-nativism-american-party-immigration-catholicism.shtml - broken link)

Quote:
Germans often took up farming on the frontier, but Irish immigrants congregated in the cities of the Northeast and Midwest. Exhausted by famine and oppression, few of them could afford life outside the slums. The Irish made up 30 percent of New York’s population and accounted for 70 percent of the city’s charity recipients and half its arrests. Life in midcentury American cities was grim, dirty, and tiring; most immigrants took jobs as day laborers, maids, and laundresses. The mortality rate in major cities actually rose by 33 percent between 1840 and 1855. As crowding, poverty, and violence soared in America’s tenements, the “natives” took notice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bipolarpunk View Post
The Point IS Illegal Immigration, which is why this topic was posted in the Illegal Immigration forum.. Talk about "Straw Man Argument".. Illegal Alien apologists seem to always want to argue that the ancestors of Legal U.S. citizens also came into this country Illegally as an excuse to try to justify the mass influx of poorly educated people that become a strain on our Social Services.. Which if you are trying to make the "back then" argument, there was NO Welfare, NO Food Stamps, NO Section 8 Housing, NO Taxpayer funded entitlements...

The settlers also did NOT bring Gangs, drugs, etc..

The suggestion that American citizens and legal immigrants that believe in having the law enforced regarding immigration laws are prejudiced is NOT the case as one may believe.. We have terrorists entering this country that commit identity theft, arrive with drug cartels, etc..
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Northern California
25 posts, read 27,188 times
Reputation: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
Best question on this forum in a long time .

To me "trouble" comes when you can visually see, hear and recognize the differences of the illegal immigrants compared to the "natives". Culture is also a big part of it though and Latin Americans really aren't that far from Americans culturally IMO. Spaniards found this country and created cities like St. Augustine and once owned the Western States, culture is embedded there.

Personally, I think it could be worse. At least people from Mexico and Latin America share the same primary beliefs in religion being Christians. Also United States already has a Spanish speaking territory in Puerto Rico. Americans are pretty familiar with Mexican and Latin food.

What if Christian illegal Mexicans were replaced by Arabic Muslims, like Europe? That would be a much larger impact IMO.

Now I do think if you replaced illegal Mexicans with illegal Irish or Canadians...it would be a totally different story, no matter how low class. If they were white and spoke english, they would blend in visually anywhere in the US, much harder to discriminate against, so "trouble" would be lower.

Africans would probably be given a pass just based on guilt of slavery. We probably have a high number of illegal Africans already, yet I never hear of an ICE raid on them.

Non-English speaking whites, like Polish, Romanians, Russians..etc would probably have less impact than Latin Americans, but again just because they can blend in visually anywhere. Think of a Mexican in Iowa vs a Russian in Iowa (or take L.A. for example which has many illegal Russians).
If these hypothetical "illegals" spoke English, then at least the schools in California wouldn't be so negatively impacted.

However, illegal is against the law and IMHO, it doesn't matter where they came from -- just go home. If the illegals "enhance" the American experience, perhaps they should help their own countries.
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Northern California
25 posts, read 27,188 times
Reputation: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by John McClane View Post
My parents are old enough to remember a time in the U.S when people were held together by a common language, you know in the "Leave It To Beaver" days. But that was before the U.S government thought it was a good idea to open the flood gates to millions of illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America.
Me, too, and I'm barely in my 50s. What happened??
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