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Old 06-04-2009, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
I'm not the one who brought it up...she did. So you can tell her what type of forum this is...
Thereís a HUGE difference between mentioning something in ONE post, and trying to hijack a thread. I said what I had to say, and that was the end of it; whereas, you wanted to turn the entire thread into an in-depth discussion on Black America. Therein lies the difference.
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Old 06-04-2009, 03:45 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SydneyY View Post
I think the best way to handle this is for those wanting to come here for a better life to go through the legal immigration process. Respecting the laws of the United States goes a long way to becoming a welcome addition to our country. Millions of people become legal immigrants. Why should illegal aliens be entitled to the same life as those who are here legally? I don't understand why that concept is so difficult to grasp.

This thread is about illegal immigration and how to "compromise," not justify those who are here illegally, no matter what race or ethnicity.
I think that the comprimise shouldn't be focused as much on rights of those already here, but prevention of unplanned/uncontrolled immigration. I think that equal rights should be given to those that have been here a while (how long, I really don't know maybe 5-10 years).
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Old 06-04-2009, 03:47 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,921 times
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Thereís a HUGE difference between mentioning something in ONE post, and trying to hijack a thread. I said what I had to say, and that was the end of it; whereas, you wanted to turn the entire thread into an in-depth discussion on Black America. Therein lies the difference.

YOU started it....YOU made said point, out of all other possibilities of points, YOU decided on this one....YOU were the one that wanted to go down that road. Otherwise why bring it up in the first place? I hardly call responding to your post hijacking.
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Old 06-04-2009, 03:57 PM
 
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Sorry you seem angry..but this is a forum about illegal immigration, not anthropology, morality, or human behavior. Some years ago, when we had a million illegals in the US, would have been a GREAT time for 'seeing the other side', hearing 'the other guy's point', and observing the various 'nuanced shades of grey'.

I'm not angry. On the contrary. I'm enjoying a nice view from my office, right down the street from the beach. Aside from not being at the beach, great day overall. If anything I feel sad for you, people like you, people who don't want to go deeper and find the structural causes. It's nice to put paint on a falling house, but it won't keep that house up. Gotta go deeper.

See, what do you think illegal immigration is? Are reasons behind it? Are there forces pushing immigration? It's not as simple as "Dey took 'er jobs!" (South Park). So yeah immigration is morality, anthro, sociology, economics, psychology, public policy...because each of these things has a role. It's sad that people only take a soundbite and run with it, without ever knowing all aspects.

Today, after one HUGE, and several smaller, amnesties, we stand at about 20 million illegals. At that point, perhaps the time has run out for seeing 'shades of grey', and 'black and white' may indeed better describe the situation. Illegal immigration is WRONG in the sense it's illegal, and that point alone makes it PRETTY black-and-white, all other considerations aside. When we get a handle on our 20 million illegals, later of course we can always go back to 'seeing both sides'. Right now, that seems pretty far-fetched. Illegal immigration is ILLEGAL....period. What, exactly is the 'other side' of that concept?

Why did things go wrong? Why are they coming? What are the economic rammifications of our consumption? What are the political rammifications of sealing the border military style? Again, you don't delve deep enough.

Maybe YOU could profit by listening to the "other side" of your own family....sounds to me like your nephew MAY have a few ideas that it wouldn't hurt you to consider....(I know...this is a trick...and he's really 3 years old...right?)

He's 10 first off. Secondly, he sees what he has here in America and wonders why did his grandmother not have it good? He delves a little deeper than "black and white", "legal and illegal"...he understands that it's not as clean and cut as you portray. But then again, this comes with having contact to both sides...something that is lacking in America sometimes.
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Old 06-04-2009, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
YOU started it....YOU made said point, out of all other possibilities of points, YOU decided on this one....YOU were the one that wanted to go down that road. Otherwise why bring it up in the first place? I hardly call responding to your post hijacking.
Címon, letís keep this on an adult level. You sound like my son when he was 5. Enough already.
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Old 06-04-2009, 04:07 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,709,656 times
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Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
What cracks me up is people saying inane comments without a base knowledge

You understand fire. You undertand pain. You studied about Hiroshima. You have basis to form those opinions.

You grew up in the First World. At worst, you grew up with electricity, running water, but no TV. You were able to attend decent public schools. You have no bearing whatsoever to comprehend extreme poverty. It's simply not something you ever learned or knew. You're opinions are vast and over-arching...over the bounds of what you know.

If you didn't know pain, fire, or have a history of Hiroshima...you would not be able to form your opinions on the subject. And your opinions probably are not as developed as say as survivor of Hiroshima, or professor that teaches Atomic History (real class BTW...good class).

I must confess that my curiosity has gotten the better of me. No doubt I will regret it, but I have go to ask. What exactly is it that causes you to believe that you are the only person qualified to speak on Third World issues? You are what, in your mid twenties? What makes you think that your life experiences, whatever they may be, are more valid than those of others who have lived and worked all over the world? People who have been following world issues for years and have decades of experience as a working, tax paying adults. What is this? Let's here about your comprehension of 'extreme poverty'? What is it based on? Did you live in a Third World slum or what? Even if you did, so what? What exactly is your 'base knowledge'? The way things stand now, I cannot think of one reason why I should give your opinion (and that is all it is) any more weight than that of the next person.
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Old 06-04-2009, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Címon, letís keep this on an adult level. You sound like my son when he was 5. Enough already.
Now that you bring it up; I can see why you say that.
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Old 06-04-2009, 04:26 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
I must confess that my curiosity has gotten the better of me. No doubt I will regret it, but I have go to ask. What exactly is it that causes you to believe that you are the only person qualified to speak on Third World issues? You are what, in your mid twenties? What makes you think that your life experiences, whatever they may be, are more valid than those of others who have lived and worked all over the world? People who have been following world issues for years and have decades of experience as a working, tax paying adults. What is this? Let's here about your comprehension of 'extreme poverty'? What is it based on? Did you live in a Third World slum or what? Even if you did, so what? What exactly is your 'base knowledge'? The way things stand now, I cannot think of one reason why I should give your opinion (and that is all it is) any more weight than that of the next person.
I've been wondering pretty much the same thing....the above speaks for me, too. In addition, I'll add that "OK, you've made your point...those who've come of age in an affluent, free, technologically-advanced First World setting certainly could, and probably DO, have trouble seeing things from the standpoint of a Third World villager...on that we agree. But by the same token, it's EQUALLY possible that that Third-World villager may ALSO have a problem; and he is JUST as likely to be as unable to see things from MY viewpoint, as I am unable to see things from HIS."

So there you have it....we privileged, sheltered residents of the affluent West just never will "get" how life looks from the Third World. And just as truly, those folks will never "get" how life looks to us. Yet, at the end of the day, we're HERE, and they're THERE....so what's the conclusion to be drawn? (I realize at this point that someone may chime in with words to the effect that 'we Westerners have the DUTY and the MORAL OBLIGATION to understand the 'other guy's point of view'. MY question then becomes, "do these 'Others'....these denizens of the Third World...(PARTICULARLY those who have plans to move HERE)....have any EQUIVALENT 'duty' or 'moral obligation on THEIR part, to 'understand us, those who live in the West ?"...or is the obligation all on one side?

We all recognize "Western (or 'affluent'...or 'white'....'colonial'...or 'secular post-Christian') guilt"....this forum even had quite a lively debate about it around a year ago. Is there an equivalent "Third World guilt"? Or is 'societal guilt' strictly an affliction of liberal, secular, non-ethnically-based societies? It's an important question, because a LOT of the tension and bickering on this thread today has to do with a sort of 'societal guilt' or 'culpability'...or the need for one society to account for the wrongs of another. Do ALL societies experience this? Does anyone on the forum believe they do? (because I sure don't).

Get to the question of 'societal guilt', and you'll be close to uncovering much of the misunderstanding between "us" and "them" (whoever 'we' and 'they' are)..

Last edited by macmeal; 06-04-2009 at 04:35 PM..
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Old 06-04-2009, 04:34 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,921 times
Reputation: 822
Címon, letís keep this on an adult level. You sound like my son when he was 5. Enough already.

I tried, but it's one of those things that didn't work when I tried to have a conversation with you previously. I figured, this might work...more on par.
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Old 06-04-2009, 04:48 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,921 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
I must confess that my curiosity has gotten the better of me. No doubt I will regret it, but I have go to ask. What exactly is it that causes you to believe that you are the only person qualified to speak on Third World issues? You are what, in your mid twenties? What makes you think that your life experiences, whatever they may be, are more valid than those of others who have lived and worked all over the world? People who have been following world issues for years and have decades of experience as a working, tax paying adults. What is this? Let's here about your comprehension of 'extreme poverty'? What is it based on? Did you live in a Third World slum or what? Even if you did, so what? What exactly is your 'base knowledge'? The way things stand now, I cannot think of one reason why I should give your opinion (and that is all it is) any more weight than that of the next person.
I think that I'm not the only one. Actually there are a lot of other people that can too. But I feel that this entire notion of third world mentality, or criminality, and the lack of examining problems beyond the scope of either: they are poor, they have too many kids, their country is poor...well it just seems that people that make such comments don't really know. Why do I say this? Well, they tend to say things as "In America it's possible to succeed because we have smaller families. Why do they have huge families which they can't feed?" This assumes that they are not able to think things through, not able to adapt to their environment, are completely illogical, and that indeed they can't feed their kids. Obviously there is a lot of room for error in these generalized statements. Yet, people that have been abroad, as yourself, continually do this. They have a superiority complex as compared to the Third World. They tend to only look at things through a lense of being from the First World. Which is understandable.

My family is from the villages of Ivory Coast. My cousin is a cocao farmer. He can barely read (self taught). I have other cousins that were richer and were able to attend the Sorbonne and other highly regarded universities. I've lived in my mom's village for half a year when I was younger. This was so I would have a more global understanding. I've literally seen the richest of the rich and poorest of the poor. From talking to CEOs and ambassadors in the Alps to trying to kill a chicken for dinner in Ivory Coast. So I have seen the disparities of life.

I just think that making statements that are really over generalizations, stereotypes, and sometimes flat out lies really should be tempered with some base knowledge, or at least followed by how people arrived to those conclusions.
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