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Old 06-04-2009, 04:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
I just think that making statements that are really over generalizations, stereotypes, and sometimes flat out lies really should be tempered with some base knowledge, or at least followed by how people arrived to those conclusions.
I think so too.....great idea.
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Old 06-04-2009, 05:05 PM
 
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I've been wondering pretty much the same thing....the above speaks for me, too. In addition, I'll add that "OK, you've made your point...those who've come of age in an affluent, free, technologically-advanced First World setting certainly could, and probably DO, have trouble seeing things from the standpoint of a Third World villager...on that we agree. But by the same token, it's EQUALLY possible that that Third-World villager may ALSO have a problem; and he is JUST as likely to be as unable to see things from MY viewpoint, as I am unable to see things from HIS."

Agreed. But, seeing how they typically don't hold the wealth, we hold the power in this conversation...not the third world.

So there you have it....we privileged, sheltered residents of the affluent West just never will "get" how life looks from the Third World. And just as truly, those folks will never "get" how life looks to us. Yet, at the end of the day, we're HERE, and they're THERE....so what's the conclusion to be drawn? (I realize at this point that someone may chime in with words to the effect that 'we Westerners have the DUTY and the MORAL OBLIGATION to understand the 'other guy's point of view'. MY question then becomes, "do these 'Others'....these denizens of the Third World...(PARTICULARLY those who have plans to move HERE)....have any EQUIVALENT 'duty' or 'moral obligation on THEIR part, to 'understand us, those who live in the West ?"...or is the obligation all on one side?

We all do. Those in the Third World need to learn the mistakes of the past, and try to not repeat them. Not to get corrupt on power and wealth and not create the same structure that was in place.

We all recognize "Western (or 'affluent'...or 'white'....'colonial'...or 'secular post-Christian') guilt"....this forum even had quite a lively debate about it around a year ago. Is there an equivalent "Third World guilt"? Or is 'societal guilt' strictly an affliction of liberal, secular, non-ethnically-based societies? It's an important question, because a LOT of the tension and bickering on this thread today has to do with a sort of 'societal guilt' or 'culpability'...or the need for one society to account for the wrongs of another. Do ALL societies experience this? Does anyone on the forum believe they do? (because I sure don't).

Guilt is a human emotion, every society experiences social guilt. What really matters isn't the guilt, but rather finding a solution that is beneficial to you and others.

Get to the question of 'societal guilt', and you'll be close to uncovering much of the misunderstanding between "us" and "them" (whoever 'we' and 'they' are)..

I think you might be right...at least for the "pro-illegals". For those in the third world, the misunderstandings are due to a severe lack of equality of trade and economic practices.
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Old 06-04-2009, 05:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I think so too.....great idea.
Lead the charge then...lead it well.
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Old 06-04-2009, 05:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Now that you bring it up; I can see why you say that.
You know the saying don't throw rocks inside a glass house....
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Old 06-04-2009, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Maryland
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Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
I think that I'm not the only one. Actually there are a lot of other people that can too. But I feel that this entire notion of third world mentality, or criminality, and the lack of examining problems beyond the scope of either: they are poor, they have too many kids, their country is poor...well it just seems that people that make such comments don't really know. Why do I say this? Well, they tend to say things as "In America it's possible to succeed because we have smaller families. Why do they have huge families which they can't feed?" This assumes that they are not able to think things through, not able to adapt to their environment, are completely illogical, and that indeed they can't feed their kids. Obviously there is a lot of room for error in these generalized statements. Yet, people that have been abroad, as yourself, continually do this. They have a superiority complex as compared to the Third World. They tend to only look at things through a lense of being from the First World. Which is understandable.

My family is from the villages of Ivory Coast. My cousin is a cocao farmer. He can barely read (self taught). I have other cousins that were richer and were able to attend the Sorbonne and other highly regarded universities. I've lived in my mom's village for half a year when I was younger. This was so I would have a more global understanding. I've literally seen the richest of the rich and poorest of the poor. From talking to CEOs and ambassadors in the Alps to trying to kill a chicken for dinner in Ivory Coast. So I have seen the disparities of life.

I just think that making statements that are really over generalizations, stereotypes, and sometimes flat out lies really should be tempered with some base knowledge, or at least followed by how people arrived to those conclusions.
But you still havenít explained why you believe the U.S. should be the benefactor for the world. We are all aware of the impoverished conditions many in the world must endure. My heart aches for all who suffer. However, there is only so much we as a nation can do. We have our own poor, and there are children living in this country born to citizens, who go to bed hungry on a daily basis.

We have a right to oppose people who have no regard for our laws; be they citizens or illegal aliens. This is not an indictment of any particular race/ethnicity, and it isnít racism. We have simply had enough; and quite frankly, I donít give a damn whether you or anyone else agrees with our right to oppose. This is our country.
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Old 06-04-2009, 05:20 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
I've been wondering pretty much the same thing....the above speaks for me, too. In addition, I'll add that "OK, you've made your point...those who've come of age in an affluent, free, technologically-advanced First World setting certainly could, and probably DO, have trouble seeing things from the standpoint of a Third World villager...on that we agree. But by the same token, it's EQUALLY possible that that Third-World villager may ALSO have a problem; and he is JUST as likely to be as unable to see things from MY viewpoint, as I am unable to see things from HIS."

Agreed. But, seeing how they typically don't hold the wealth, we hold the power in this conversation...not the third world.

So there you have it....we privileged, sheltered residents of the affluent West just never will "get" how life looks from the Third World. And just as truly, those folks will never "get" how life looks to us. Yet, at the end of the day, we're HERE, and they're THERE....so what's the conclusion to be drawn? (I realize at this point that someone may chime in with words to the effect that 'we Westerners have the DUTY and the MORAL OBLIGATION to understand the 'other guy's point of view'. MY question then becomes, "do these 'Others'....these denizens of the Third World...(PARTICULARLY those who have plans to move HERE)....have any EQUIVALENT 'duty' or 'moral obligation on THEIR part, to 'understand us, those who live in the West ?"...or is the obligation all on one side?

We all do. Those in the Third World need to learn the mistakes of the past, and try to not repeat them. Not to get corrupt on power and wealth and not create the same structure that was in place.

We all recognize "Western (or 'affluent'...or 'white'....'colonial'...or 'secular post-Christian') guilt"....this forum even had quite a lively debate about it around a year ago. Is there an equivalent "Third World guilt"? Or is 'societal guilt' strictly an affliction of liberal, secular, non-ethnically-based societies? It's an important question, because a LOT of the tension and bickering on this thread today has to do with a sort of 'societal guilt' or 'culpability'...or the need for one society to account for the wrongs of another. Do ALL societies experience this? Does anyone on the forum believe they do? (because I sure don't).

Guilt is a human emotion, every society experiences social guilt. What really matters isn't the guilt, but rather finding a solution that is beneficial to you and others.

Get to the question of 'societal guilt', and you'll be close to uncovering much of the misunderstanding between "us" and "them" (whoever 'we' and 'they' are)..

I think you might be right...at least for the "pro-illegals". For those in the third world, the misunderstandings are due to a severe lack of equality of trade and economic practices.
This answers most of the questions I posed...thanks. As I suspected, though we're all pretty much at fault here, it's "us" who bear the responsibility, as we hold 'all the cards'...which, in a roundabout way, is just saying that 'it's on US to fix things'. I don't agree, but respect your consistency.

As far as your point "all societies experience social guilt"? Nope, on that you're wrong...not even close. Individuals the world over no doubt experience SOME form or another of guilt for their transgressions...but SOCIETIES? PLEASE!....give me just a FEW examples, please, to compare with the 'colonial guilt' of the affluent West...ever hear of 'Russian guilt'? 'Chinese' guilt'? 'Aztec guilt'?....Zulu guilt?....Japanese, or Aleut, or Bulgarian, or Serbian 'guilt'? If so, I'm not aware of anything like these on a societal level. Nope, 'Societal guilt' is pretty much the exclusive province of the 'affluent and liberal West'..(and if you don't think the REST of the world is WELL AWARE of this, you're sadly misguided).
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Old 06-04-2009, 05:35 PM
 
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But you still havenít explained why you believe the U.S. should be the benefactor for the world. We are all aware of the impoverished conditions many in the world must endure. My heart aches for all who suffer. However, there is only so much we as a nation can do. We have our own poor, and there are children living in this country born to citizens, who go to bed hungry on a daily basis.

Because I never stated such...we should enact fair trade, oversee our factories abroad, influence the IMF and World Bank to not have silly strings that will bankrupt countries attached to loans, encourage other nations to follow in being aware members of society, not enter hastily into conflicts, not back regimes that can destroy nations...I think you get my gist. As a nation, we really cause a lot of problems which we later move from. We don't really do THAT much in terms of help. This is one reason why Africa is looking East for aid and help (China). Our aid comes with strings attached (from abstinence only education in Africa, to dooming small business in Jamaica). We just throw money into the hands of the corrupt in other countries to ensure we can continue our business.

We have a right to oppose people who have no regard for our laws; be they citizens or illegal aliens. This is not an indictment of any particular race/ethnicity, and it isnít racism. We have simply had enough; and quite frankly, I donít give a damn whether you or anyone else agrees with our right to oppose. This is our country.

The thing is that it it's cheaper and a better method to educate and help those ALREADY here. All I can say is that it's not racism...but many times it is cultural elitism.
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Old 06-04-2009, 05:43 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
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This answers most of the questions I posed...thanks. As I suspected, though we're all pretty much at fault here, it's "us" who bear the responsibility, as we hold 'all the cards'...which, in a roundabout way, is just saying that 'it's on US to fix things'. I don't agree, but respect your consistency.

Thanks. It's not us individually, but rather those that we buy from. Those in power. Take for example my friend whose step dad is the head corporate lawyer of Nestle Suisse. Imigine how angry he was when I brought up the chocolate slaves of West Africa. It was not a pretty sight. He politley said that Nestle did not condone those methods of farming. I quickly realized that this is a sore subject...but Nestle gained more money by accepting and paying farmers who practiced slavery. He benefitted from that. I, indirectly, did as well (my parents paid half the trip, they paid the other half). We just need to help in any small way possible.

As far as your point "all societies experience social guilt"? Nope, on that you're wrong...not even close. Individuals the world over no doubt experience SOME form or another of guilt for their transgressions...but SOCIETIES? PLEASE!....give me just a FEW examples, please, to compare with the 'colonial guilt' of the affluent West...ever hear of 'Russian guilt'? 'Chinese' guilt'? 'Aztec guilt'?....Zulu guilt?....Japanese, or Aleut, or Bulgarian, or Serbian 'guilt'? If so, I'm not aware of anything like these on a societal level. Nope, 'Societal guilt' is pretty much the exclusive province of the 'affluent and liberal West'..(and if you don't think the REST of the world is WELL AWARE of this, you're sadly misguided).

There is such thing as Russian guilt. I don't know, but I know there are Jews in Russia, and TRUST me there is Jewish guilt everywhere. Chinese guilt? Yup. My co-workers are Chinese and mentioned about it. African guilt is SUPER strong (why don't you help us here? Why do you abandon your mother? Why don't you get your advance degree? Why not volunteer since you know what it's like being poor? Oh it's there... lol). As strong as Jewish guilt. Societal guilt is everywhere. This is one of the things that makes us human.
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
2,075 posts, read 1,774,015 times
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Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
If one of your Third World denizens relocates to the US and has 10 kids because that is the way things are done in the Third World, the chances are real good that the US taxpayer is going to end up subsidizing them. I am not interested. I behaved responsibly and limited the size of my family and can think of no reason why I should be on the hook for someone who fails to do so. I do not care if that is how things are done in the Third World. If they wish to have huge families that they cannot support, then they need to stay in the Third World.

That's because there was an economic incentive for you to do so. Again, there needs to be a comprimise between you guys and us. You fail to put it in context. Those with more kids are BETTER off than those with less kids.

What are you talking about. We are supposed to subsidize this 'large families are great in the Third World' behavior for two or three generations until they manage to adapt to our smaller family sizes? Forget that. Let them stay where they are.

Did I mention any of this in that post? No. Please don't infer things that were not mentioned.

Not my problem. They need to stay in Mexico and solve their own problems. I am confident other countries will be willing to offer advice if they ever get serious about cleaning up their own act.

No, they'd rather live in squalor...Really? Don't you think that they are "serious", but there are obstacles like the IMF or the World Bank that make crazy provisions in which actually cause more harm (Jamaica, Venezuala, and Argentina come to mind...their economies tanked after taking the advice of other nations, hence the trepidation of Latin American countries with the IMF).



If there is a very small plot of land, why on earth are they having mobs of kids. Surely they can recognize the fact that they will not be able to support all of them on the food grown on this small plot of land? What happens when all 12 of their kids grow up? Are the parents going to keep dividing their land into smaller and smaller parcels until nobody has enough land to survive on? Or is there some mysterious program where the amount of land you own magically increases by several acres for each additional kid you birth? In an agrarian society there is only so much arable land. I do not care if this is their culture, it is an extremely shortsighted way of thinking.

It is actually very long term, since the kids will most likely move out to urban communities and send money home. There is a large boom in rural to urban migration. Again, this shows a lack of understanding of Third World economics and dynamics.

I will post on Third World culture if I choose to do so. You do not tell me what to do.

Well, at least do some research. Otherwise don't post.
OMG, there you are. I have spent hours looking for you. Ahh, you are the post police, right??????

Lookie here, some of these posters have conflicting views. Could you just write them a ticket, or, maybe arrest them for a whi...........
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Old 06-04-2009, 08:10 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Originally Posted by that1guy View Post

As far as your point "all societies experience social guilt"? Nope, on that you're wrong...not even close. Individuals the world over no doubt experience SOME form or another of guilt for their transgressions...but SOCIETIES? PLEASE!....give me just a FEW examples, please, to compare with the 'colonial guilt' of the affluent West...ever hear of 'Russian guilt'? 'Chinese' guilt'? 'Aztec guilt'?....Zulu guilt?....Japanese, or Aleut, or Bulgarian, or Serbian 'guilt'? If so, I'm not aware of anything like these on a societal level. Nope, 'Societal guilt' is pretty much the exclusive province of the 'affluent and liberal West'..(and if you don't think the REST of the world is WELL AWARE of this, you're sadly misguided).

There is such thing as Russian guilt. I don't know, but I know there are Jews in Russia, and TRUST me there is Jewish guilt everywhere. Chinese guilt? Yup. My co-workers are Chinese and mentioned about it. African guilt is SUPER strong (why don't you help us here? Why do you abandon your mother? Why don't you get your advance degree? Why not volunteer since you know what it's like being poor? Oh it's there... lol). As strong as Jewish guilt. Societal guilt is everywhere. This is one of the things that makes us human.
As I clearly explained in the quote above, the examples of guilt you're citing aren't 'societal guilt', they're PERSONAL guilt. In the African example, it's not even guilt at ALL...what you're describing is putting a 'guilt trip' on another person..that's not guilt, that's blame.
Chinese and Russian guilt...on a societal level? So you believe there's a strong streak of guilt in the Russian culture which 'blames itself' for Stalin's purges? For what the Russians did to Hungary? To Eastern Europe? To their own internal exiles?

You think the Chinese are losing sleep over what they CONTINUE to do to Tibet? The Japanese wallowing in guilt about the Bataan Death March, the Korean 'comfort women', and the horrors of Singapore? They barely acknowledge these things, let alone take any blame.

How guilty do you think the Arabs of Sudan feel about their current 'ethnic cleansing' of their black neighbors? "Not very", would be my guess..because it's still going on.

Nope, you won't find 'societal guilt' outside a very TINY slice of the 'affluent West'.where WE feel guilty about just about EVERYONE. Look at our current Mexican illegals..do you imagine the rich 'movers and shakers' of Mexico feel 'guilty' that their poor neighbors are forced to flee the country, while the rich 'party on'? Don't fool yourself. There's plenty of guilt in the 'illegal game', for sure...but it's all HERE, in the US...where we feel 'guilty' that the illegals come here, 'guilty' about deporting them, and 'guilty' that they can't get amnesty....and of course, the illegals agree..we SHOULD feel guilty, because we WILL. Do these illegals blame the system 'back home'? Of COURSE not...the Mexican elite simply aren't susceptible to any 'guilt trip', and everyone knows it would be a wasted effort to try to appeal to their shame. We have plenty of shame up HERE, and that's what's being targeted.

ALL societies have abused others...some in ways nearly unspeakable....yet only a few experience guilt, or feel any responsibilty. That's an entirely different matter from PERSONAL guilt, or 'assigning guilt to others', as in the examples you offered above.
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