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As I clearly explained in the quote above, the examples of guilt you're citing aren't 'societal guilt', they're PERSONAL guilt. In the African example, it's not even guilt at ALL...what you're describing is putting a 'guilt trip' on another person..that's not guilt, that's blame.
Chinese and Russian guilt...on a societal level? So you believe there's a strong streak of guilt in the Russian culture which 'blames itself' for Stalin's purges? For what the Russians did to Hungary? To Eastern Europe? To their own internal exiles?
You think the Chinese are losing sleep over what they CONTINUE to do to Tibet? The Japanese wallowing in guilt about the Bataan Death March, the Korean 'comfort women', and the horrors of Singapore? They barely acknowledge these things, let alone take any blame.
How guilty do you think the Arabs of Sudan feel about their current 'ethnic cleansing' of their black neighbors? "Not very", would be my guess..because it's still going on.
Nope, you won't find 'societal guilt' outside a very TINY slice of the 'affluent West'.where WE feel guilty about just about EVERYONE. Look at our current Mexican illegals..do you imagine the rich 'movers and shakers' of Mexico feel 'guilty' that their poor neighbors are forced to flee the country, while the rich 'party on'? Don't fool yourself. There's plenty of guilt in the 'illegal game', for sure...but it's all HERE, in the US...where we feel 'guilty' that the illegals come here, 'guilty' about deporting them, and 'guilty' that they can't get amnesty....and of course, the illegals agree..we SHOULD feel guilty, because we WILL. Do these illegals blame the system 'back home'? Of COURSE not...the Mexican elite simply aren't susceptible to any 'guilt trip', and everyone knows it would be a wasted effort to try to appeal to their shame. We have plenty of shame up HERE, and that's what's being targeted.
ALL societies have abused others...some in ways nearly unspeakable....yet only a few experience guilt, or feel any responsibilty. That's an entirely different matter from PERSONAL guilt, or 'assigning guilt to others', as in the examples you offered above.
Dang...I can't rep you on this. I have to spread some love around.
This is why there are times when we should not work to 'Get Out The Vote'.
Truly a dreadful level we've descended to here on the thread. Reminds me of the huge migration of the 1930's in which the 'Okies' left the midwest and moved en-masse to California, and in so doing, succeeded in LOWERING the I.Q. LEVEL of BOTH places.
It ALSO serves to illustrate the original question...."Why can't both sides compromise"? THIS is why.....Rodney King, wherever you are.....you were RIGHT !!!
I think the best way to handle this is for those wanting to come here for a better life to go through the legal immigration process. Respecting the laws of the United States goes a long way to becoming a welcome addition to our country. Millions of people become legal immigrants. Why should illegal aliens be entitled to the same life as those who are here legally? I don't understand why that concept is so difficult to grasp.
This thread is about illegal immigration and how to "compromise," not justify those who are here illegally, no matter what race or ethnicity.
The problem with that "better life" claim is that illegals in the USA are not better than people back home. I hear Mexicans say that they came to "better themselves" as though Mexicans who stay in Mexico are lesser beings of some kind.
They can better themselves by staying in school in Mexico, working hard, limiting family size or whatever. Just coming to the USA for all the material things they expect to have here doesn't make them better than their paisanos back home.
In fact how is someone who is breaking every kind of law to live in a country that is not theirs "better" than someone living in his own country, working to make it better.
As I clearly explained in the quote above, the examples of guilt you're citing aren't 'societal guilt', they're PERSONAL guilt. In the African example, it's not even guilt at ALL...what you're describing is putting a 'guilt trip' on another person..that's not guilt, that's blame.
I'm African...it's guilt. Sorry to inform you, but all cultures experience guilt.
Chinese and Russian guilt...on a societal level? So you believe there's a strong streak of guilt in the Russian culture which 'blames itself' for Stalin's purges? For what the Russians did to Hungary? To Eastern Europe? To their own internal exiles?
I'm not Russian, I don't know for certain. But I have to talked to Russians who have expressed guilt for the mistreatment of Eastern Europe.
You think the Chinese are losing sleep over what they CONTINUE to do to Tibet? The Japanese wallowing in guilt about the Bataan Death March, the Korean 'comfort women', and the horrors of Singapore? They barely acknowledge these things, let alone take any blame.
Again, you have this notion that guilt is only seen in Western Europeans...it's a universal thing. Hence why Chinese officers feel guilty about Tianamen or even how the government handled the quakes...hell many feel guilty about its treatment of Taiwan...guilt is not just seen in nations of Western European origin.
How guilty do you think the Arabs of Sudan feel about their current 'ethnic cleansing' of their black neighbors? "Not very", would be my guess..because it's still going on.
It's actually way more complicated. Sudanese Americans feel guilty, but those many in Sudan obviously don't. Some do...it actually is not as cut and dry as you think. Speaking with friends in Khartoum it's not as binary as you present it.
Nope, you won't find 'societal guilt' outside a very TINY slice of the 'affluent West'.where WE feel guilty about just about EVERYONE. Look at our current Mexican illegals..do you imagine the rich 'movers and shakers' of Mexico feel 'guilty' that their poor neighbors are forced to flee the country, while the rich 'party on'? Don't fool yourself. There's plenty of guilt in the 'illegal game', for sure...but it's all HERE, in the US...where we feel 'guilty' that the illegals come here, 'guilty' about deporting them, and 'guilty' that they can't get amnesty....and of course, the illegals agree..we SHOULD feel guilty, because we WILL. Do these illegals blame the system 'back home'? Of COURSE not...the Mexican elite simply aren't susceptible to any 'guilt trip', and everyone knows it would be a wasted effort to try to appeal to their shame. We have plenty of shame up HERE, and that's what's being targeted.
It's not all here in the US. Again this is part of what I was talking about in previous posts...people assuming that advanced concepts such as societal equality is not found in other parts of the worlds. This is part of what I saying previously...if you don't know, at least acknowledge it. Again, why wasn't my friend's dad "guilty"...he's Swiss. Oh, what about my other friend's dad...he's a CEO for UBS..they bought a lot of mortgages...Air France regional CEO of the mid East (his wife and my mom were good friends...untill a fight at my birthday at the Swiss ambassador's house in the morning, then at the Gabonese ambassador's home at night)...he doesn't care that owns and has exclusive contracts to several national airlines. Regardless of the fact that these airlines represent independence...he bought them. It's fine, they are living well (I personally know and like them....but let's be honest...business is not moral, and they benefited because of such).
ALL societies have abused others...some in ways nearly unspeakable....yet only a few experience guilt, or feel any responsibilty. That's an entirely different matter from PERSONAL guilt, or 'assigning guilt to others', as in the examples you offered above.
There is a societal guilt. Hell, some in other nations feel that there is a lack of one here. Which is truly ironic considering what you believe.
As I clearly explained in the quote above, the examples of guilt you're citing aren't 'societal guilt', they're PERSONAL guilt. In the African example, it's not even guilt at ALL...what you're describing is putting a 'guilt trip' on another person..that's not guilt, that's blame.
I'm African...it's guilt. Sorry to inform you, but all cultures experience guilt.
Chinese and Russian guilt...on a societal level? So you believe there's a strong streak of guilt in the Russian culture which 'blames itself' for Stalin's purges? For what the Russians did to Hungary? To Eastern Europe? To their own internal exiles?
I'm not Russian, I don't know for certain. But I have to talked to Russians who have expressed guilt for the mistreatment of Eastern Europe.
You think the Chinese are losing sleep over what they CONTINUE to do to Tibet? The Japanese wallowing in guilt about the Bataan Death March, the Korean 'comfort women', and the horrors of Singapore? They barely acknowledge these things, let alone take any blame.
Again, you have this notion that guilt is only seen in Western Europeans...it's a universal thing. Hence why Chinese officers feel guilty about Tianamen or even how the government handled the quakes...hell many feel guilty about its treatment of Taiwan...guilt is not just seen in nations of Western European origin.
How guilty do you think the Arabs of Sudan feel about their current 'ethnic cleansing' of their black neighbors? "Not very", would be my guess..because it's still going on.
It's actually way more complicated. Sudanese Americans feel guilty, but those many in Sudan obviously don't. Some do...it actually is not as cut and dry as you think. Speaking with friends in Khartoum it's not as binary as you present it.
Nope, you won't find 'societal guilt' outside a very TINY slice of the 'affluent West'.where WE feel guilty about just about EVERYONE. Look at our current Mexican illegals..do you imagine the rich 'movers and shakers' of Mexico feel 'guilty' that their poor neighbors are forced to flee the country, while the rich 'party on'? Don't fool yourself. There's plenty of guilt in the 'illegal game', for sure...but it's all HERE, in the US...where we feel 'guilty' that the illegals come here, 'guilty' about deporting them, and 'guilty' that they can't get amnesty....and of course, the illegals agree..we SHOULD feel guilty, because we WILL. Do these illegals blame the system 'back home'? Of COURSE not...the Mexican elite simply aren't susceptible to any 'guilt trip', and everyone knows it would be a wasted effort to try to appeal to their shame. We have plenty of shame up HERE, and that's what's being targeted.
It's not all here in the US. Again this is part of what I was talking about in previous posts...people assuming that advanced concepts such as societal equality is not found in other parts of the worlds. This is part of what I saying previously...if you don't know, at least acknowledge it. Again, why wasn't my friend's dad "guilty"...he's Swiss. Oh, what about my other friend's dad...he's a CEO for UBS..they bought a lot of mortgages...Air France regional CEO of the mid East (his wife and my mom were good friends...untill a fight at my birthday at the Swiss ambassador's house in the morning, then at the Gabonese ambassador's home at night)...he doesn't care that owns and has exclusive contracts to several national airlines. Regardless of the fact that these airlines represent independence...he bought them. It's fine, they are living well (I personally know and like them....but let's be honest...business is not moral, and they benefited because of such).
ALL societies have abused others...some in ways nearly unspeakable....yet only a few experience guilt, or feel any responsibilty. That's an entirely different matter from PERSONAL guilt, or 'assigning guilt to others', as in the examples you offered above.
There is a societal guilt. Hell, some in other nations feel that there is a lack of one here. Which is truly ironic considering what you believe.
Speaking for just myself: my 'White/societal guilt' has died-------------unless dealing with probable political refugees---------------I want the illegal aliens out of the USA period.
As I clearly explained in the quote above, the examples of guilt you're citing aren't 'societal guilt', they're PERSONAL guilt. In the African example, it's not even guilt at ALL...what you're describing is putting a 'guilt trip' on another person..that's not guilt, that's blame.
I'm African...it's guilt. Sorry to inform you, but all cultures experience guilt.
Chinese and Russian guilt...on a societal level? So you believe there's a strong streak of guilt in the Russian culture which 'blames itself' for Stalin's purges? For what the Russians did to Hungary? To Eastern Europe? To their own internal exiles?
I'm not Russian, I don't know for certain. But I have to talked to Russians who have expressed guilt for the mistreatment of Eastern Europe.
You think the Chinese are losing sleep over what they CONTINUE to do to Tibet? The Japanese wallowing in guilt about the Bataan Death March, the Korean 'comfort women', and the horrors of Singapore? They barely acknowledge these things, let alone take any blame.
Again, you have this notion that guilt is only seen in Western Europeans...it's a universal thing. Hence why Chinese officers feel guilty about Tianamen or even how the government handled the quakes...hell many feel guilty about its treatment of Taiwan...guilt is not just seen in nations of Western European origin.
How guilty do you think the Arabs of Sudan feel about their current 'ethnic cleansing' of their black neighbors? "Not very", would be my guess..because it's still going on.
It's actually way more complicated. Sudanese Americans feel guilty, but those many in Sudan obviously don't. Some do...it actually is not as cut and dry as you think. Speaking with friends in Khartoum it's not as binary as you present it.
Nope, you won't find 'societal guilt' outside a very TINY slice of the 'affluent West'.where WE feel guilty about just about EVERYONE. Look at our current Mexican illegals..do you imagine the rich 'movers and shakers' of Mexico feel 'guilty' that their poor neighbors are forced to flee the country, while the rich 'party on'? Don't fool yourself. There's plenty of guilt in the 'illegal game', for sure...but it's all HERE, in the US...where we feel 'guilty' that the illegals come here, 'guilty' about deporting them, and 'guilty' that they can't get amnesty....and of course, the illegals agree..we SHOULD feel guilty, because we WILL. Do these illegals blame the system 'back home'? Of COURSE not...the Mexican elite simply aren't susceptible to any 'guilt trip', and everyone knows it would be a wasted effort to try to appeal to their shame. We have plenty of shame up HERE, and that's what's being targeted.
It's not all here in the US. Again this is part of what I was talking about in previous posts...people assuming that advanced concepts such as societal equality is not found in other parts of the worlds. This is part of what I saying previously...if you don't know, at least acknowledge it. Again, why wasn't my friend's dad "guilty"...he's Swiss. Oh, what about my other friend's dad...he's a CEO for UBS..they bought a lot of mortgages...Air France regional CEO of the mid East (his wife and my mom were good friends...untill a fight at my birthday at the Swiss ambassador's house in the morning, then at the Gabonese ambassador's home at night)...he doesn't care that owns and has exclusive contracts to several national airlines. Regardless of the fact that these airlines represent independence...he bought them. It's fine, they are living well (I personally know and like them....but let's be honest...business is not moral, and they benefited because of such).
ALL societies have abused others...some in ways nearly unspeakable....yet only a few experience guilt, or feel any responsibilty. That's an entirely different matter from PERSONAL guilt, or 'assigning guilt to others', as in the examples you offered above.
There is a societal guilt. Hell, some in other nations feel that there is a lack of one here. Which is truly ironic considering what you believe.
I guess we just aren't reaching each other here....obviously you're not hearing me. The examples of 'African guilt', for instance, that you provided were:
"Why don't you help us here"?
"Why do you abandon your mother ?"
"Why don't you get your advanced degree?"
"Why not volunteer [to help us] since you've experienced poverty"?
As I said, those aren't examples of 'guilt'...they're attempts to induce guilt in someone ELSE. (the 'you' in your story)....putting a 'guilt trip' on someone ELSE is not guilt...it's the polar opposite. Your examples don't indicate whether or not that ploy WORKS....nor whether the person being 'guilted' ever responds, by 'helping'...or by 'returning to his mother', etc....but that's not the issue. Guilt is a phenomenon experienced by a person, OR a society, from his/its own "conscience"...guilt can't be placed on one person by another.
Societal guilt would be, for example, a large number of Americans saying such things as ..
*"No WONDER we were attacked on 9/11, after the way we've treated 'those people'...they have every RIGHT to be angry at us"...(I actually HEARD several Catholics say this, just after 9/11...two of them my close relatives).
* "Illegal immigrants come here not because they're lawbreakers, but because we took away a lot of their country. Their OWN system at home is 'broken', and they have the RIGHT to stay here now, because we've LET them stay. We SHOULD never have allowed them here; now that we HAVE, it's our responsibility to fix, not theirs".
* "America is a land of immigrants...ALL of us are immigrants; therefore it's not up to us to judge others. And 'legal' is only a relative term".
* "America is a society uniquely evil, because we enslaved the blacks and killed off the Indians. We did this out of greed and inhumanity; OTHER nations, too, have committed genocide, but that's their business...and they did it for reasons of economic disparity and outside influences, NOT because of racism or inhumanity".
* "America buys Middle Eastern oil from ruthless tyrants who abuse their OWN people. Thus America is responsible for the unfair conditions in Middle Eastern society...their own rulers and their own internal feuds have nothing to do with it...THAT part is THEIR business".
THOSE (above) are examples of 'societal guilt'..a society castigating ITSELF for the wrongs it's done AS A SOCIETY, and holding no one else accountable. You've given no example of any society outside the 'affluent West' which comes close to this...
And no, I never said it was common to Western Europeans. It's not. Catholic nations, (which are both 'western' AND many European) do NOT suffer 'societal guilt'. It's not just the legacy of 'colonialism', either....for Spain was a huge colonial power, yet has no 'guilt' toward the legacy it left in Latin America and elsewhere...yet the US, which never WAS a colonial power, seems to be willing to assume guilt for just about everything, even things it didn't do....(for example, our massive guilt about the colonial history of Africa, the legacy of corruption, apartheid, and the ongoing violence there. Yet the US had no colonies in Africa, had very little impact on the history of the continent..yet today, we suffer FAR more 'guilt' over Africa than the colonial powers who once controlled it, or the modern-day kleptocratic tyrants who are running the place into the ground and bleeding it to death with corruption. Where's THEIR guilt?)
You can continue to cite examples of 'guilt trips' laid on others...but that's not guilt, that's blame. Guilt is something an individual lays on HIMSELF...and while ALL individuals are capable of some form of 'guilt', only a very few societies are.
Your own posts are excellent examples of this, in which time after time, you admonish your readers (us) of what they "should do"...or "must do"...or why "they're to blame" for the various inequities of the world, including the predicament of illegal immigrants. Seldom have I ever heard you mention what 'the illegals'...or 'the Africans'...or 'those of the Third World' should do to improve their OWN situation; when you do so, it's only in the weakest and most reluctant way...Then it's right back to 'business'...your admonishing all of us that it's "on us" to fix things, to allow illegals to stay, and to reach out and 'see into the mnds' of most of the world's widely-scattered peoples; which is odd, since at the same time, you INSIST there are no cultural differences in how people best operate; "All places", in your eyes, are equally cultured, equally 'good', equally oriented toward the welfare of their residents, and all lifestyles are equally productive. The only difference between "here" and "there" I've ever been able to deduce from your writings, is that "here", we bear the blame for things going wrong, and "there" they don't.
As I said before, we simply aren't communicating here. My fault, I suppose...because while YOUR posts are crystal-clear, mine are hard to follow.
I guess we just aren't reaching each other here....obviously you're not hearing me. The examples of 'African guilt', for instance, that you provided were:
"Why don't you help us here"?
"Why do you abandon your mother ?"
"Why don't you get your advanced degree?"
"Why not volunteer [to help us] since you've experienced poverty"?
As I said, those aren't examples of 'guilt'...they're attempts to induce guilt in someone ELSE. (the 'you' in your story)....putting a 'guilt trip' on someone ELSE is not guilt...it's the polar opposite. Your examples don't indicate whether or not that ploy WORKS....nor whether the person being 'guilted' ever responds, by 'helping'...or by 'returning to his mother', etc....but that's not the issue. Guilt is a phenomenon experienced by a person, OR a society, from his/its own "conscience"...guilt can't be placed on one person by another.
Societal guilt would be, for example, a large number of Americans saying such things as ..
*"No WONDER we were attacked on 9/11, after the way we've treated 'those people'...they have every RIGHT to be angry at us"...(I actually HEARD several Catholics say this, just after 9/11...two of them my close relatives).
* "Illegal immigrants come here not because they're lawbreakers, but because we took away a lot of their country. Their OWN system at home is 'broken', and they have the RIGHT to stay here now, because we've LET them stay. We SHOULD never have allowed them here; now that we HAVE, it's our responsibility to fix, not theirs".
* "America is a land of immigrants...ALL of us are immigrants; therefore it's not up to us to judge others. And 'legal' is only a relative term".
* "America is a society uniquely evil, because we enslaved the blacks and killed off the Indians. We did this out of greed and inhumanity; OTHER nations, too, have committed genocide, but that's their business...and they did it for reasons of economic disparity and outside influences, NOT because of racism or inhumanity".
* "America buys Middle Eastern oil from ruthless tyrants who abuse their OWN people. Thus America is responsible for the unfair conditions in Middle Eastern society...their own rulers and their own internal feuds have nothing to do with it...THAT part is THEIR business".
THOSE (above) are examples of 'societal guilt'..a society castigating ITSELF for the wrongs it's done AS A SOCIETY, and holding no one else accountable. You've given no example of any society outside the 'affluent West' which comes close to this...
And no, I never said it was common to Western Europeans. It's not. Catholic nations, (which are both 'western' AND many European) do NOT suffer 'societal guilt'. It's not just the legacy of 'colonialism', either....for Spain was a huge colonial power, yet has no 'guilt' toward the legacy it left in Latin America and elsewhere...yet the US, which never WAS a colonial power, seems to be willing to assume guilt for just about everything, even things it didn't do....(for example, our massive guilt about the colonial history of Africa, the legacy of corruption, apartheid, and the ongoing violence there. Yet the US had no colonies in Africa, had very little impact on the history of the continent..yet today, we suffer FAR more 'guilt' over Africa than the colonial powers who once controlled it, or the modern-day kleptocratic tyrants who are running the place into the ground and bleeding it to death with corruption. Where's THEIR guilt?)
You can continue to cite examples of 'guilt trips' laid on others...but that's not guilt, that's blame. Guilt is something an individual lays on HIMSELF...and while ALL individuals are capable of some form of 'guilt', only a very few societies are.
Your own posts are excellent examples of this, in which time after time, you admonish your readers (us) of what they "should do"...or "must do"...or why "they're to blame" for the various inequities of the world, including the predicament of illegal immigrants. Seldom have I ever heard you mention what 'the illegals'...or 'the Africans'...or 'those of the Third World' should do to improve their OWN situation; when you do so, it's only in the weakest and most reluctant way...Then it's right back to 'business'...your admonishing all of us that it's "on us" to fix things, to allow illegals to stay, and to reach out and 'see into the mnds' of most of the world's widely-scattered peoples; which is odd, since at the same time, you INSIST there are no cultural differences in how people best operate; "All places", in your eyes, are equally cultured, equally 'good', equally oriented toward the welfare of their residents, and all lifestyles are equally productive. The only difference between "here" and "there" I've ever been able to deduce from your writings, is that "here", we bear the blame for things going wrong, and "there" they don't.
As I said before, we simply aren't communicating here. My fault, I suppose...because while YOUR posts are crystal-clear, mine are hard to follow.
Look guilt is everywhere it is a human trait. You can accept it, or reject it personally, but the truth of the matter is that internal guilt, is common to EVERY culture. It is one of the things that makes us all human. Again whether you personally accept or reject it, it's a fact...not an opinion.
Look guilt is everywhere it is a human trait. You can accept it, or reject it personally, but the truth of the matter is that internal guilt, is common to EVERY culture. It is one of the things that makes us all human. Again whether you personally accept or reject it, it's a fact...not an opinion.
An uncharacteristically short answer, given your usual posting style. Nevertheless, thanks for allowing me the option of rejecting your assertion....which I hereby do. It's one of the very FEW things that I feel no guilt about. No personal guilt at all....(and certainly no societal guilt, either).
I'm starting to understand life as it's lived in a Third World village, after all. Here in the 'village' of this forum, it seems like a number of the "elders" have gotten together on line to chastise one of the "young"....One who has forgotten his manners, and has upset the older, more experienced members of the tribe. The elders are now sitting around the 'cyber camp fire' and taking turns 'bawling out' the misbehaving young upstart for being presumptuous, condescending, and just generally 'cheeky'. Will the young fellow be 'banished from the village'? Probably not....Is he listening? Probably not, again....but notice has been served nonetheless. He has annoyed the village, and the elders have spoken.
Guess all cultures aren't that different, AFTER all...
I'm starting to understand life as it's lived in a Third World village, after all. Here in the 'village' of this forum, it seems like a number of the "elders" have gotten together on line to chastise one of the "young"....One who has forgotten his manners, and has upset the older, more experienced members of the tribe. The elders are now sitting around the 'cyber camp fire' and taking turns 'bawling out' the misbehaving young upstart for being presumptuous, condescending, and just generally 'cheeky'. Will the young fellow be 'banished from the village'? Probably not....Is he listening? Probably not, again....but notice has been served nonetheless. He has annoyed the village, and the elders have spoken.
Guess all cultures aren't that different, AFTER all...
Indubitably
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