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Old 06-06-2009, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,725,996 times
Reputation: 3785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
Yeah, it is about time that those wineries close due to not being able to compete in a global market, uhmm... wonder how many houses we can build on that land?
Oh well.

Let the vintners move their operations to Mexico and have to deal with pandemic corruption at best.
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Old 06-06-2009, 11:25 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,725,501 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
The DREAMie losers appear to be loose today.
The Suite Life of Zack and Cody doesn't come on for another half hour.
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Old 06-07-2009, 02:24 AM
 
2,381 posts, read 4,423,273 times
Reputation: 475
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
I didn't say that. I did say that if the vintners paid a decent wage with health benefits then maybe illegals wouldn't need the proceeds from charity in order to get health care.

$11 an hour is not bad, but you can't support a family on that. I would call that entry level. Hard work is nothing new to Americans as a whole, however now most people want a job with a future as well as benefits. The vintners are offering neither. Perhaps Americans and legal immigrants would do this work if there were either benefits or a future for them. Since there is not, and since it is clear that the vintners would rather pay the least amount that they can get away with - in this case I would propose a return to the temporary worker visa program. The problem with that is trusting the temporary immigrants to leave when their visa expired.
Thanks for clarifying camping but the problem is not the wage. Certainly Napa is very expensive to live. Yes, I believe you are right, it is entry level, work but what job isnt? With the current recession and the massive lay offs, I would not be wasting time. any job will do even if it is hard work. Now days, people depend on two incomes (their spouse and theirs). One can start renting and own a home if they keep working there until they reach top pay.

My question to you is, why do you support a temporary immigrant visa? How will this help and if your concern is people returning back to their countries, I would not even bother with the program because eventually, they will stay. In this case, I would rather support Malamutes idea of companies moving their business where their employees live. We would loose big time but I am in favor of keeping families together and if we cannot keep the workers here, then so be it.
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Old 06-07-2009, 02:48 AM
 
2,381 posts, read 4,423,273 times
Reputation: 475
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
I've worked the fields and I know many Americans who have.

The problem with some of those jobs is that they are only seasonal. It's not that they're especially hard -- it's certainly not really all that difficult to pick fruit, it's not backbreaking, not all that different in nature than assembly line work, certainly not dangerous like the job many Americans are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Being seasonal means that there are extended periods of time that there is no work. The problem with bringing in foreigners and their large extended families is that even if the hourly pay is okay and legal, the job may last 3 months and welfare programs have to support these people in the meantime.

I could see having true temporary foreign workers who are brought in for the 3 months they're needed. Or make these jobs again the good summer jobs for American families. Allow American youth to work these jobs to help pay their college tuition and whatever. Or prisoners who need to have some work skills, these could be good stating places for them.

The other approach would be new machines. We've got robotics for intricate surgeries today, but we can't have robotics for picking lettuce? Necessity is the mother of all invention they say, but in the end it could be far more cost-saving to have a machine harvesting that can run 24-7 and doesn't need expensive schools and health care.
Hmmm...no disrespect Malamute but I find it hard to believe that you have worked in the fields when you are stating that it is not backbreaking or dangerous when I have been there, done that and when the reports show other wise.

Work related injuries and ill health in agriculture – Injuries (http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/industry/agriculture/injuries.htm - broken link)

Also, you really cant compare it to war. In war, you know someone may shoot you and die or vise versa. In agriculture, you go in knowing it is hard manual work but at the end of the day, just like any other job, you go home. However, agriculture by far has a higher rate in work related injuries than in any other work setting. As I said, I know, I have been there and no one can tell me its not difficult to pick fruit when I have experienced the pain myself.

Picking lettuce, strawberries, etc are all jobs where you need to be on your back all day long. Specially in the summer time, you can get dehydrated and employers hardly give any breaks. As far as jobs being seasonal, it is true. However, most immigrants go from one job to the next working year round in a few different seasonal fruits. When picking walnuts was over, some moved to picking apricots and others went to grapes, strawberries or cotton picking. Some simply went to canaries for that season until the next season came and they were ready to relocate once again.

I have also known a few Americans that have worked in the fields but certainly this is not an area where most Americans prefer to work or even consider applying. As far as prisoners doing these jobs? Now that is laughable because in California, prisoners are referred to the oil companies but most dont like the starting pay of $10.00 an hour, nor do they like getting oil all over their bodies. They rather go back to selling drugs or stealing. I know because I have worked for corrections and I would hear it all the time. Much less would they consider hard manual labor in the fields.
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Old 06-07-2009, 02:53 AM
 
2,381 posts, read 4,423,273 times
Reputation: 475
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Instead of a publicity stunt, perhaps the vintners should pay a living wage to their workers that included health benefits. Of course if they did that, they may actually have legal immigrants and citizens doing the work.
Some do offer healthcare premiums to their employees even when they are here illegaly. Many do take advantage of it.
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Old 06-07-2009, 04:20 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,967,072 times
Reputation: 22179
Quote:
Originally Posted by zacatecana View Post
Hmmm...no disrespect Malamute but I find it hard to believe that you have worked in the fields when you are stating that it is not backbreaking or dangerous when I have been there, done that and when the reports show other wise.

Work related injuries and ill health in agriculture – Injuries (http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/industry/agriculture/injuries.htm - broken link)

Also, you really cant compare it to war. In war, you know someone may shoot you and die or vise versa. In agriculture, you go in knowing it is hard manual work but at the end of the day, just like any other job, you go home. However, agriculture by far has a higher rate in work related injuries than in any other work setting. As I said, I know, I have been there and no one can tell me its not difficult to pick fruit when I have experienced the pain myself.

Picking lettuce, strawberries, etc are all jobs where you need to be on your back all day long. Specially in the summer time, you can get dehydrated and employers hardly give any breaks. As far as jobs being seasonal, it is true. However, most immigrants go from one job to the next working year round in a few different seasonal fruits. When picking walnuts was over, some moved to picking apricots and others went to grapes, strawberries or cotton picking. Some simply went to canaries for that season until the next season came and they were ready to relocate once again.

I have also known a few Americans that have worked in the fields but certainly this is not an area where most Americans prefer to work or even consider applying. As far as prisoners doing these jobs? Now that is laughable because in California, prisoners are referred to the oil companies but most dont like the starting pay of $10.00 an hour, nor do they like getting oil all over their bodies. They rather go back to selling drugs or stealing. I know because I have worked for corrections and I would hear it all the time. Much less would they consider hard manual labor in the fields.
Oh come on! Maybe you've never worked other jobs then. I picked fruit and no it wasn't back breaking at all compared with waiting tables and working in a factory which I also have done. The buckets were not all that heavy and we only had to carry them to the truck when it came to weigh and pick up.

As far as breaks -- we got to have them whenever we wanted. No one stands out there with a whip. You could take a short lunch or a long lunch but if you weren't working, you weren't picking and you weren't going to have anything to weigh in. It may be dfifferent if you're paid by the hour (we weren't) and you might get the standard half hour lunch and 2 15 minute breaks -- however if the employer is bringing in illegals, then he's not following even basic labor laws.

Dangerous? Not really -- the machines may be a little dangerous but no worse than driving a car. Yes a tree branch could whack you in the face, and these little nasty flies would come out and bite. We brought in drinks, and there was a water pump that we could use any time we needed water.

Baling hay is a bit more dangerous because of the machines but there are machines in factories that are every bit as dangerous. It's somewhat back breaking if you have to pick up the bales by hand of course but most of the time there's the machine that lifts the bales like an elevator.

What makes farm work dangerous for some is that they may have no safety training of any kind, cannot read warning signs or MSDS sheets and don't know how to handle the chemicals they use. If someone isn't used to machines they may not understand safety precautions they need to take.
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Old 06-07-2009, 04:24 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,967,072 times
Reputation: 22179
Also since many farms are family run farms, often the corporation farms hire a husband-wife team to manage a big farm much of the work is done by Americans. My brother-in-law is a farmer, the tractor he drove was very big, enclosed cab, CD player and air conditioning. He said it was better than sitting in an office. He worked hard also - but it's a myth that Americans will not work hard and that only all the people from south of the border will work hard. It's probably racist to believe that also but we won't get into that.
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Old 06-07-2009, 04:28 AM
 
Location: Staten Island, New York
147 posts, read 186,826 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by zacatecana View Post
You call that exploitation? No wonder Americans don't take those jobs. I call them decent, honest and hard work jobs. Of course it is slave work. It's intense, hard manual labor that not just anyone wants to do. I worked in the fields before when i was growing up and I don't think I can go back to it. One of my close friends is a bilingual accountant at a winery, a few others are grape pickers and winery chefs. I know for a fact that in Napa Valley they start the grape pickers at $10.75 and can go as high as $20.88. They have said that Americans will only apply for chefs, tour guides, servers but never for picking. I wonder why? I think the pay is good but maybe not good enough for the hard manual labor. They don't want to be exploited with hard manual labor. I don't blame them. I wouldn't do it either. That's why I went to school.
That argument is getting a bit old. Have you seen the unemplyment numbers lately. These jobs that "Americans don't want to do" is not true. I know plenty of people who are not working and need to support their families and are quite willing to do "these jobs". The problem is is that they're not willing to take a penny less than minimum wage to do them..
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Old 06-07-2009, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,725,996 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negrapola1975 View Post
That argument is getting a bit old. Have you seen the unemplyment numbers lately. These jobs that "Americans don't want to do" is not true. I know plenty of people who are not working and need to support their families and are quite willing to do "these jobs". The problem is is that they're not willing to take a penny less than minimum wage to do them..
You know that and I know that-----------but, the illegal alien apologists do not wish to be confused with facts.
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Old 06-07-2009, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,725,996 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by zacatecana View Post
Thanks for clarifying camping but the problem is not the wage. Certainly Napa is very expensive to live. Yes, I believe you are right, it is entry level, work but what job isnt? With the current recession and the massive lay offs, I would not be wasting time. any job will do even if it is hard work. Now days, people depend on two incomes (their spouse and theirs). One can start renting and own a home if they keep working there until they reach top pay.

My question to you is, why do you support a temporary immigrant visa? How will this help and if your concern is people returning back to their countries, I would not even bother with the program because eventually, they will stay. In this case, I would rather support Malamutes idea of companies moving their business where their employees live. We would loose big time but I am in favor of keeping families together and if we cannot keep the workers here, then so be it.
Well: using just the Napa Valley as our guinea pig; either wages there need to go up or the cost of living needs to decline to entice Americans/green card holders to work there. If it means the employers offering on-site housing @ reasonable rates-----------so be it.
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