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Old 09-03-2009, 07:38 PM
 
45 posts, read 47,534 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
"Undocumented students"....hmmm....are these students without Microsoft Word? I just love the euphemism. Let's call them what they are...ILLEGAL ALIENS.
To be here legally, an immigrant requires documents.
UNdocumented immigrant.

Illegal alien means the same thing. There's no reason to really argue either term, unless you are simply going for the one that sounds more negative to you for word association.

 
Old 09-03-2009, 07:39 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,713,551 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
So what you are saying is that you want to take away even MORE resources from the American underclass to TRY (note I used the word TRY) to stop illegal immigration and deportation. That sounds like a great idea.

See, I'd rather see said resources work towards the underclass and trim the fat of society. I think that we should like at history to see examples of wars on ideals/intangibles (lost the war on drugs, losing the war on terror, and frankly losing the war on illegal immigration). Why? Because we (our side) is fighting a literal war when we should be focused on how to change the problem. In this case the problem is how to eliminate an illegal immigrant underclass. Providing a method of legalization via education would be a step in the direction.
Cut off the jobs, and cut off the freebies. Deprive them of the things that draw them here in the first place in the hope that if they just squat illegally in the US for long enough, we will throw up our hands and say, "Oh, all right! You can have amnesty!". Once they no longer have all these goodies dangling in front of them, they can either leave or they can go live in some colonia somewhere. I do not care one way or another. They are here illegally. They deliberately ignored our immigration laws to try and get their hands on US citizenship so they can feast fully at the buffet of benefits available to citizens. There is a procedure to follow if one wishes to become a US citizen. They all seem to have this pervasive attitude that the rules do not apply to them. They need to go home and get in line behind everybody else who is waiting. If there is no way for them to come here, then they are not supposed to be here.

Last edited by andreabeth; 09-03-2009 at 07:50 PM..
 
Old 09-03-2009, 07:41 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,713,551 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Not changing the subject.
Then answer the question.
 
Old 09-03-2009, 07:41 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,080,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Workin_Hard View Post
Punishment infers an intentional, directed action from punisher to punishee. The consequences we discuss are not directed at the illegal child, but are a result of the actions taken by their parents in violation of US law. You're trying to argue a negative. Denial of benefits to someone who is not entitled to them cannot be a punishment.

I'm arguing a negative...because it is a negative. It's a punishment. I don't really know how that idea escapes you.

You're viewing the witholding of something (a higher education) from someone who by definition is not entitled to it as a punishment. So if I deny a criminal the ability to take my plasma TV by putting locks on my door, I'm punishing him? Or maybe I'm punishing his children since they will not get to watch Telemundo on it.

A plasma TV is not the same as a college education. Again, it's not even an apt analogy.

My analogy holds. The loss of an opportunity at higher education in the US at US taxpayer expense is not a punishment as many US citizens will not (for whatever reason) have the opportunity to get a college education. It is a consequence of the parents' action in entering the US illegally and bringing an illegal child with them. I maintain that we owe that child NOTHING but a trip home with mama and/or papa (preferably both) as quickly as possible. (I'd say send them in a shipping container but you'll probably get your panties in a wad over that...)

Sorry if your arcane argument is simply a means in which to propogate this notion that exclusion is okay. That our nation needs to spend countless resources to TRY to stem illegal immigration. All in all, the free market will decide the direction of immigration, not policy. We've seen time and again in various nations. Yet, our policies don't reflect said lessons. So I ask, does that make sense? We need policies to realize that immigration is really market based. And in order to control immigration we need to see it as such and not as an us vs. them mentality we currently have.

Please explain how in your view the child is being punished. We know what consequences he/she/it faces due to the parents' action in my solution. What are the consequences in your scenario?

I already have explaned. You didn't understand, so it would be kind of like running into a brick to try to explain again. The consequences would be that they become a fuctional member of society. Upon a college degree or sufficient vocational training, they obtain citizenship. That's my idea.

And where do you get off on handing out all these entitlements?

These aren't "entitlements". An entitlement would be that you feel that no ESL should occur since it somehow (again somehow) degrades your local school. You feel that "they" (which a good portion are legal and still need ESL) aren't as worthy as you.
Moderator cut: inappropriate language

Last edited by Yac; 09-04-2009 at 03:40 AM..
 
Old 09-03-2009, 07:42 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,080,559 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Then answer the question.
What question? I don't even bother reading your posts anymore because they are filled with irrational dribble mostly.
 
Old 09-03-2009, 07:45 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,080,559 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Workin_Hard View Post
Start trimming the fat by eliminating illegal aliens from our public education system.

We're not even fighting the war on illegal immigration. Send National Guard troops to the border with orders to shoot anything that moves over the border in anything but normal entry zones. (How's that for "eliminating the illegal immigrant underclass"?) Stop putting water jugs out for these criminals to slake their thirst. When caught, see that they're deported immediately - send the bambinos along directly from school.

You have a funny idea of "war". We're not even serious about fighting one.
Well sure as hell spend as we are at war. Why would we militarize the border? It still wouldn't eliminate illegal immigration...it's a really big border. Unless you really want to waste time and money...
 
Old 09-03-2009, 07:49 PM
 
48,519 posts, read 81,086,895 times
Reputation: 17978
It's time for the governam,nt to enforce the secong part of teh immagration law of the 80's and stopp illegal aliens in this couhntry. They had their amnesty and how its time to seal the border;deport thoise here. The change the law so that a illegals child born here is a illegal.
 
Old 09-03-2009, 07:49 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,713,551 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
What question? I don't even bother reading your posts anymore because they are filled with irrational dribble mostly.
This question.

Who brought the kid (DREAMie) to the US illegally, that1guy?
 
Old 09-03-2009, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,844 posts, read 14,524,175 times
Reputation: 3484
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliforniaBear View Post
To be here legally, an immigrant requires documents.
UNdocumented immigrant.

Illegal alien means the same thing. There's no reason to really argue either term, unless you are simply going for the one that sounds more negative to you for word association.
I'm going for the one that describes the situation correctly and doesn't try to sugar coat or use friendly sounding euphemisms.

These kids and their parents didn't come here without a document, they came here illegally, which means they are criminals and not just missing their "documents."
 
Old 09-03-2009, 08:13 PM
 
45 posts, read 47,534 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
I'm going for the one that describes the situation correctly and doesn't try to sugar coat or use friendly sounding euphemisms.
Sugar coating? It is what it is. Anything else is going for the most negative, emotional, fearful way of saying it.

Without documents=undocumented. It's simple.
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