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Old 06-05-2009, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,181 posts, read 9,452,443 times
Reputation: 2977
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Precisely right; practically my own posts, word-for-word, on many occasions, on this very forum. We've always managed to blend MANY cultures into a viable society, and it worked well, over the years; and in so doing, we managed to tame a wilderness, survive a depression, win TWO World Wars, and create the world's leading industrial power.

All of which causes one to wonder why, at this late date, in the past two decades, we're suddenly admonished that we must "strive" for multiculturalism; that we must 'seek it out', 'promote it', and 'emphasize' it. We must spend money and set aside resources to make sure we're sufficiently multicultural in all facets of life.

Because we did go through periods of extreme nationalism (When the Irish immigrated here, the Know Nothing movement of the 1850s, operation *******...even segregation). There was an ideal of "American". This ideal is at the heart of the immigration debate. So people need to reaffirm the fact that it's okay to not be this ideal (apple pie, suburbia, baseball, prom, etc.).

In recent memory we see that television does not really portray American society too well (where are the Hispanics, Asians, and Blacks...I live in SoCal, I KNOW plenty of minorities looking for a gig...even Asians). We see that you are treated better if you have a certain set of cultural identifiers (A Black guy wearing tighter fighting clothing is going to be treated better than a Black guy wearing more urban attire).

While we are multicultural, that doesn't mean that there is no inequality and we should stop striving for multicultural acceptance.

This is my whole reason for doubt. If, as you say, we're a 'multicultural society...and always HAVE been', then why must we seek, promote, cultivate, and 'push' that which we ALREADY HAVE? If we've ALWAYS taken the best from around the world, brought them here, and they've 'become Americans', then why the sudden need for 'multiculturalism'? Is it because we NOW propose to take our immigrants in, let them 'flourish', and NOT become Americans?..or do we propose to have them come in, live any way they wish, and simply CALL THEMSELVES Americans? What's with this sudden interest in multiculturalism, if indeed it's what we've always had?

Assimilation comes to all immigrants. With that said, we allow immigrants to "flourish" since if we break them down, we have seen that doesn't work. It's better to have ESL classes, and forms in Spanish...instead of sink or swim. I think that you can have cultural retention and be American. A perfect example is the Indian-American community. Very successful, yet as a group retain many cultural ties. So it is possible to be a multicultural person in a multicultural society.

I don't get it. Someone's being dishonest here, or someone's simply oveelooking something..but at any rate, how do you make a multicultural nation multicultural? Isn't that a contradiction?

What's not to get? You have a nation that is multicultural. Many in said nation despise or wish it would lessen. So others in said nation have to prove to that they (the others) are not criminals, or any other stereotype imposed on them.
But, we are not discussing assimilation or multiculturalism involving legal immigrants, are we? Most legal immigrants do in fact Ďblend iní eventually, donít they? As macmeal stated, what is so different now? Iíll tell you. We now have millions of foreigners residing in this country in flagrant violation of our laws, who are being coddled, and essentially sanctioned by our government NOT to conform to our mores. Consequently, they remain a separate culture, with no aspirations whatsoever to ever become members of our melting pot. If granted amnesty, this will not change. We will simply have a group of ďAmericans,Ē in name only. How can that benefit our country?
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Old 06-05-2009, 06:46 PM
 
1,117 posts, read 1,238,806 times
Reputation: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
You even stated you truly did not know for a certain fact that they were ALL illegal. You said you had good reason to believe.

Spring Valley has an income higher than the state average, and a poverty rate lower than the national average. Crime rates are roughly lower than average. You cited music and chickens (which I doubt that there were that many...I lived near an industrial chicken coup and cattle ranches I've seen what a lot of chickens look like). So again, it's fine if you don't like Hispanic culture...it's your perogative. I feel that it's a little of an overreatction, well hey, you found a better place for you without "illegals" or possible "illegals", and that's what it's all about.
Spring Valley does NOT have an income higher than average, nor a poverty rate lower than national average. Where to you get this stuff?

Spring Valley is a large city in the County of San Diego, which has at least 3 different zip codes. The area of Spring Valley that I lived in was basically a slum...all due to illegal immigration.
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Old 06-05-2009, 06:47 PM
 
Location: San Diego
16,725 posts, read 12,374,278 times
Reputation: 5738
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Precisely right; practically my own posts, word-for-word, on many occasions, on this very forum. We've always managed to blend MANY cultures into a viable society, and it worked well, over the years; and in so doing, we managed to tame a wilderness, survive a depression, win TWO World Wars, and create the world's leading industrial power.

All of which causes one to wonder why, at this late date, in the past two decades, we're suddenly admonished that we must "strive" for multiculturalism; that we must 'seek it out', 'promote it', and 'emphasize' it. We must spend money and set aside resources to make sure we're sufficiently multicultural in all facets of life.

Because we did go through periods of extreme nationalism (When the Irish immigrated here, the Know Nothing movement of the 1850s, operation *******...even segregation). There was an ideal of "American". This ideal is at the heart of the immigration debate. So people need to reaffirm the fact that it's okay to not be this ideal (apple pie, suburbia, baseball, prom, etc.).

In recent memory we see that television does not really portray American society too well (where are the Hispanics, Asians, and Blacks...I live in SoCal, I KNOW plenty of minorities looking for a gig...even Asians). We see that you are treated better if you have a certain set of cultural identifiers (A Black guy wearing tighter fighting clothing is going to be treated better than a Black guy wearing more urban attire).

While we are multicultural, that doesn't mean that there is no inequality and we should stop striving for multicultural acceptance.

This is my whole reason for doubt. If, as you say, we're a 'multicultural society...and always HAVE been', then why must we seek, promote, cultivate, and 'push' that which we ALREADY HAVE? If we've ALWAYS taken the best from around the world, brought them here, and they've 'become Americans', then why the sudden need for 'multiculturalism'? Is it because we NOW propose to take our immigrants in, let them 'flourish', and NOT become Americans?..or do we propose to have them come in, live any way they wish, and simply CALL THEMSELVES Americans? What's with this sudden interest in multiculturalism, if indeed it's what we've always had?

Assimilation comes to all immigrants. With that said, we allow immigrants to "flourish" since if we break them down, we have seen that doesn't work. It's better to have ESL classes, and forms in Spanish...instead of sink or swim. I think that you can have cultural retention and be American. A perfect example is the Indian-American community. Very successful, yet as a group retain many cultural ties. So it is possible to be a multicultural person in a multicultural society.

I don't get it. Someone's being dishonest here, or someone's simply oveelooking something..but at any rate, how do you make a multicultural nation multicultural? Isn't that a contradiction?

What's not to get? You have a nation that is multicultural. Many in said nation despise or wish it would lessen. So others in said nation have to prove to that they (the others) are not criminals, or any other stereotype imposed on them.
And not one of those eras was it one Culture in the tens of millions. That is the difference.

We are being flooded with poor humans that are basically one culture, speak one language and people think we can absorb it.

We are seeing that we cannot.
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Old 06-05-2009, 07:07 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 3,319,500 times
Reputation: 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
But, we are not discussing assimilation or multiculturalism involving legal immigrants, are we? Most legal immigrants do in fact Ďblend iní eventually, donít they? As macmeal stated, what is so different now? Iíll tell you. We now have millions of foreigners residing in this country in flagrant violation of our laws, who are being coddled, and essentially sanctioned by our government NOT to conform to our mores. Consequently, they remain a separate culture, with no aspirations whatsoever to ever become members of our melting pot. If granted amnesty, this will not change. We will simply have a group of ďAmericans,Ē in name only. How can that benefit our country?
Why is that the increasing numbers of third generations and second generation are not only fluent in their parents or grand parents language...but also English? It's because WE know that they will have to learn English, but we allow other cultures to survive simultaneously. Globalization baby. Welcome to the 21st century.
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Old 06-05-2009, 07:09 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 3,319,500 times
Reputation: 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerCaliforniaGirl View Post
Spring Valley does NOT have an income higher than average, nor a poverty rate lower than national average. Where to you get this stuff?

Spring Valley is a large city in the County of San Diego, which has at least 3 different zip codes. The area of Spring Valley that I lived in was basically a slum...all due to illegal immigration.
YEAH it does...I've showed you the stats before. Look it up. I mean it's kind of funny how defensive you get.
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Old 06-05-2009, 07:10 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 3,319,500 times
Reputation: 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
And not one of those eras was it one Culture in the tens of millions. That is the difference.

We are being flooded with poor humans that are basically one culture, speak one language and people think we can absorb it.

We are seeing that we cannot.
Tens of millions? WTF? 10-11 million to 15 at the high end. Plus we had the same amount, higher proportion back then.
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Old 06-05-2009, 07:10 PM
 
1,117 posts, read 1,238,806 times
Reputation: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Why is that the increasing numbers of third generations and second generation are not only fluent in their parents or grand parents language...but also English? It's because WE know that they will have to learn English, but we allow other cultures to survive simultaneously. Globalization baby. Welcome to the 21st century.
Why do you have such a problem with Americans resenting the massive number of people in this country who have no legal right to be here? Why do you struggle so hard to accept the concept that Americans might actually want some say over who is allowed into this country? Immigration is supposed to be orderly and regulated. Countries should know the backgrounds and the agendas of people who want to immigrate into them.

WHY on earth do you think Americans should just look the other way when a country such as Mexico encourages its most impoverished and uneducated to flood over our border, unchecked, unseen, and uninvited?

So rather than continue to rebuke each and every post on this thread, please explain your REASONS for defending and advocating that Americans accept illegal immigration.
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Old 06-05-2009, 07:12 PM
 
1,117 posts, read 1,238,806 times
Reputation: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
YEAH it does...I've showed you the stats before. Look it up. I mean it's kind of funny how defensive you get.
I saw those stats. And those WERE NOT the area where I lived. If you know Spring Valley at all, you know that it is segregated into the "better" areas, and the slums. But, I don't think you actually know Spring Valley at all.
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Old 06-05-2009, 07:13 PM
 
8,972 posts, read 10,081,007 times
Reputation: 2939
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Why is that the increasing numbers of third generations and second generation are not only fluent in their parents or grand parents language...but also English? It's because WE know that they will have to learn English, but we allow other cultures to survive simultaneously. Globalization baby. Welcome to the 21st century.
Sounds cool...but what does language have to do with being, (or not being) a legal resident of the US? You can speak ANY language, and be a citizen. But you can't be illegal, and a citizen.
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Old 06-05-2009, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,181 posts, read 9,452,443 times
Reputation: 2977
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Why is that the increasing numbers of third generations and second generation are not only fluent in their parents or grand parents language...but also English? It's because WE know that they will have to learn English, but we allow other cultures to survive simultaneously. Globalization baby. Welcome to the 21st century.
True. However, we are NOT discussing legal immigrants, we are discussing ILLEGAL aliens. Thus, we are not obligated to tolerate or accommodate them. Itís bad enough that they are here without permission.
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