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Old 06-13-2009, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,093 posts, read 69,893,919 times
Reputation: 27519

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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post

Again, not to belabor the point, but they are already here. They already went through the hoops and trials of the American system. They WORKED for their college education. Why not let them be?
What they did and how they did it was wrong. There are legal paths for "foreign" students to get an education here in the US. They did not follow that path. They got caught. Do the crime and face the fine.

It IS that black and white. There are legal processes to obtain an education in the US for foreign students.
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Old 06-13-2009, 02:22 PM
 
472 posts, read 627,704 times
Reputation: 360
It has been said before by several people, but I will repeat: We (the citizens of the U.S.) owe the subject of the thread NOTHING. We owe ILLEGAL ALIENS nothing. Why is it so difficult for some to grasp the concept of ILLEGAL?
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Old 06-13-2009, 03:45 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
Reputation: 822
What they did and how they did it was wrong. There are legal paths for "foreign" students to get an education here in the US. They did not follow that path. They got caught. Do the crime and face the fine.

They were kids who did not commit the act.

It IS that black and white. There are legal processes to obtain an education in the US for foreign students.

It's not black and white.
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Old 06-13-2009, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,093 posts, read 69,893,919 times
Reputation: 27519
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
They were kids who did not commit the act.
She's 23; no kid and having had an American education should know about citizenship.

Does she not have parents ? Deport them as well.
Or..better yet have her serve in the military and EARN her citizenship.
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Old 06-13-2009, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weedsnake View Post
It has been said before by several people, but I will repeat: We (the citizens of the U.S.) owe the subject of the thread NOTHING. We owe ILLEGAL ALIENS nothing. Why is it so difficult for some to grasp the concept of ILLEGAL?
Simple: DREAMies as a group have delusions of grandeur IMHO.
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Old 06-13-2009, 06:00 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,711,508 times
Reputation: 22158
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
It's not black and white.
It is actually.

First of all if we need illegals here to pick lettuce and clean toilets then why is this girl thinking about us paying for her to attend the university of her choice? Doesn't that defeat your whole argument about Americans being too lazy to do certain jobs?

The other thing is that the pro-illegals wouldn't stop with her, they would go on to include any illegal deciding now to finish high school or get a GED. They would include the 2 year old just smuggled over the border in some car trunk yesterday.

The elderly grandparents coming here hoping to get a free social security check for their golden years and not a free college degree would also be included in as "dreamies" before it's all over.

The problem is, you guys don't want any illegals to have to face any consequences of breaking any law.
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Old 06-14-2009, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Why do we need to compromise with people who have no right to be here? Do we compromise with others who violate our laws?

Actually we comprimise all the time with people who violate laws. If you get out of a speeding ticket...it's a comprimise. Laws in of themselves are comprises. They are designed to work for the people. People have to agree on laws. Thus, a comprimise. We have to comprimise with everyone who live, work, and obtain an education in the US. Mathematically, scientifically, psychologically, sociologically, speaking COMPRIMISES WORK BETTER THAN ULTIMATUMS FOR EVERYONE! It's a basic tenent of game theory.

If you believe it is an irrational fear, tell that to the citizens whose identities have been stolen, and lives ruined. Tell that to the victims and families of victims of illegal alien violent criminals. Tell that to the millions whose trades have been dominated by cheap illegal labor, or wages have been depressed. Tell that to the bankrupt hospitals forced to provide ďfreeĒ medical care to hordes of illegal aliens. Tell that to the citizens whose neighborhoods have been decimated by illegal aliens who prefer to transform nice environments into the squalor they left behind. If you think illegal immigration isnít destroying this country, you are not awake.

Yeah the "path to destruction", the "lives ruined" etc. are kind of irrational. You're MUCH more likely to be attacked by a citizen than an illegal. Statistically, it's irrational to be afraid of violent crimes caused by illegal immigrants. Just like it if I told you I'm afraid of violent crimes because of blondes. Bankrupt hospitals goes back to the larger issue at hand, healthcare reform. Neighborhoods decimated? Like formercaliforniagirl's above average income area? Most of the time those people are, well, irrational. I have told that to them. They get huffy and puffy and storm off. I agree that there are unpleasant elements. These things can be fixed. One way is promoting education as a path towards citizenship. Hence a comprimise. I also do believe in shutting down companies that hire exclusively illegal immigrants. A comprimise. Life is not binary. People who think like that lack a certain amount of rationality.

They need to leave, because they do not have permission to be here. They are interlopers. If they wish to live in this country, they need to enter through the proper channels.

They Ďearnedí the labels they now own. Had they not been so arrogant and ungrateful, they wouldnít be perceived as such.

Maybe it's the other way around as well. Some might be deserved, some might not be. Again it's not so cut and dry.
Itís difficult to take you seriously, because you refuse to differentiate between citizens of this country and illegal aliens. Even the most staunch pro-illegal, and illegals themselves, acknowledge the fact that illegal aliens are not citizens of this country. They may believe they should be legalized; they may even believe they are entitled to certain rights and privileges; but they also realize they are not legal residents.

You continue to discuss illegal aliens as though they have a God-given right to be here, and our laws are somehow an infringement. I really donít know if you actually believe there is no difference, and by inculcating your beliefs, you think you will ultimately convince someone that our laws are arbitrary; or if this is merely a game you enjoy playing. Itís as though your only objective is to disagree; not to debate the issues.

What is the basis for your belief that we should grant citizenship to illegal aliens simply because they have managed to remain in this country? Do you believe we should have no laws, or would a laissez faire existence be more to your liking? In any case, your opinion of our laws is irrelevant. They donít cease to exist simply because you consider them unfair. Nor, are you the arbiter of right and wrong.

It is absolutely absurd to think we should compromise, and make concessions to illegal aliens. They have no right to be here. Thus, they do not have a seat at our negotiation table. Furthermore, they bring absolutely nothing to the table. This is OUR country, and they have either entered illegally or overstayed visas; both in violation of our laws. Consequently, in accordance with our laws, they may be deported.

Furthermore, everything in life is not a compromise; at least not in MY world. First and foremost, I will not compromise my integrity. Consequently, there are certain things I simply will not do. Moreover, every organization has rules and regulations. If one expects to remain in good standing, one must abide by those rules. Try not going to work for a month without prior authorization, without calling, and without extenuating circumstances, such as being comatose. See how long you remain employed. There will be no compromise; you will be terminated for job abandonment. Try not paying your mortgage for 6 months, with no contact with your lender. See how long you remain in your house. Try giving a store clerk $10 for a purchase totally $100; and see if he/she will be willing to compromise and allow you to leave the store with the merchandise. I could continue, but I think you catch my drift.

I could be wrong, but I do believe you are only here to dissent. . . . by any outlandish means necessary. If I stated my grass is green, and the sky is blue, you would disagree on some nonsensical basis of subjectivity or relativity. I can assure you, agreeing to disagree, or admitting you have erred, will not render you less than a man.
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Old 06-14-2009, 10:20 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
Reputation: 822
Itís difficult to take you seriously, because you refuse to differentiate between citizens of this country and illegal aliens. Even the most staunch pro-illegal, and illegals themselves, acknowledge the fact that illegal aliens are not citizens of this country. They may believe they should be legalized; they may even believe they are entitled to certain rights and privileges; but they also realize they are not legal residents.

Really it's difficult to take ME seriously? Why do I need to acknowledge every POST that illegal immigrant are illegal? WE GET THAT!!! Do you have basic reading/writing comprehension skills? It becomes redundant when you state "they are illegal" every single time. It was mentioned in the first post. There is a

You continue to discuss illegal aliens as though they have a God-given right to be here, and our laws are somehow an infringement. I really donít know if you actually believe there is no difference, and by inculcating your beliefs, you think you will ultimately convince someone that our laws are arbitrary; or if this is merely a game you enjoy playing. Itís as though your only objective is to disagree; not to debate the issues.

You act as if laws are God-given. That laws are immutable, unchangeable, and not designed to fit the needs of ALL people. Guess what? Laws are arbritrary. Trying to debate, but it's hard when the person on the other side feels that laws are somehow ordained by God to be into exsistence. It's hard to debate when the only argument is "But they're illegal!" When the other side does not acknowledge the fact that there is a gray element to this, then yeah you are right...it's hard to debate.

What is the basis for your belief that we should grant citizenship to illegal aliens simply because they have managed to remain in this country? Do you believe we should have no laws, or would a laissez faire existence be more to your liking? In any case, your opinion of our laws is irrelevant. They donít cease to exist simply because you consider them unfair. Nor, are you the arbiter of right and wrong.

Laws are meant to HELP our nation in changing circumstances. Thus, if we see it's more beneficial to create specific paths towards citizenship, why not? If we see that clamping down on employers is a good idea, why not? See, again, I feel that you see laws as an constant...they're not. They are man made. They can change depending on the situation. Neither are you the one to decide morality. It's an objective measure, not a constant.

It is absolutely absurd to think we should compromise, and make concessions to illegal aliens. They have no right to be here. Thus, they do not have a seat at our negotiation table. Furthermore, they bring absolutely nothing to the table. This is OUR country, and they have either entered illegally or overstayed visas; both in violation of our laws. Consequently, in accordance with our laws, they may be deported.

What absurd, and frankly scary, is that there are people like you out there that believe that we shouldn't compromise. Let's create a second class of people that live here then. That'll really get things right!

Furthermore, everything in life is not a compromise; at least not in MY world. First and foremost, I will not compromise my integrity. Consequently, there are certain things I simply will not do. Moreover, every organization has rules and regulations. If one expects to remain in good standing, one must abide by those rules. Try not going to work for a month without prior authorization, without calling, and without extenuating circumstances, such as being comatose. See how long you remain employed. There will be no compromise; you will be terminated for job abandonment. Try not paying your mortgage for 6 months, with no contact with your lender. See how long you remain in your house. Try giving a store clerk $10 for a purchase totally $100; and see if he/she will be willing to compromise and allow you to leave the store with the merchandise. I could continue, but I think you catch my drift.

Even in your world, everything is a compromise. Unfair rules and regulations are met with protests, and at times, change towards fairness. Rules change ALL THE TIME. For your example about work...that's not a compromise, a compromise would be agreed upon by all parties. Hence debt consolidation, debt reduction, bankruptcy (cancels certain debt, but damages your credit score). I go to work for my boss to pay me. The compromise is my work (which I don't want to do) results in my payment (which my boss doesn't want to do). Thus, both parties are reaching an agreement, a compromise. The store clerk example is a great illustration of how you don't understand the meaning of compromise. Simply forcing $10 as a substitute of $100 isn't a compromise. A mutual agreement is to find another store, find a better price within that store, or you can trade up (barter system, paper clip to house example...rare, but it happens). I can continue, hopefully you understand that life is one giant compromise.

I could be wrong, but I do believe you are only here to dissent. . . . by any outlandish means necessary. If I stated my grass is green, and the sky is blue, you would disagree on some nonsensical basis of subjectivity or relativity. I can assure you, agreeing to disagree, or admitting you have erred, will not render you less than a man.

See, that's the thing. When I agree with some aspects and acknowledge it...nothing. When I disagree I'm dissenting? You are one of those types of people that believe it's your way or the highway. You are only here to change my views, and those that don't think like you. Regardless how irrational you may be , it's always black and white. Which is fine, but understand that life isn't like that. I can assure you that a person trying to recieve a college education will not harm your exsistence. It's absurd to think that. Yet, that is the message that you convey. So I ask you AGAIN, what RATIONAL, LOGICAL reason do you have against them not being here attending college? I know the answer. None. You will say, however, "it's against the law". This is as if laws are God given, not man made.
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Old 06-14-2009, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Itís difficult to take you seriously, because you refuse to differentiate between citizens of this country and illegal aliens. Even the most staunch pro-illegal, and illegals themselves, acknowledge the fact that illegal aliens are not citizens of this country. They may believe they should be legalized; they may even believe they are entitled to certain rights and privileges; but they also realize they are not legal residents.

Really it's difficult to take ME seriously? Why do I need to acknowledge every POST that illegal immigrant are illegal? WE GET THAT!!! Do you have basic reading/writing comprehension skills? It becomes redundant when you state "they are illegal" every single time. It was mentioned in the first post. There is a

You continue to discuss illegal aliens as though they have a God-given right to be here, and our laws are somehow an infringement. I really donít know if you actually believe there is no difference, and by inculcating your beliefs, you think you will ultimately convince someone that our laws are arbitrary; or if this is merely a game you enjoy playing. Itís as though your only objective is to disagree; not to debate the issues.

You act as if laws are God-given. That laws are immutable, unchangeable, and not designed to fit the needs of ALL people. Guess what? Laws are arbritrary. Trying to debate, but it's hard when the person on the other side feels that laws are somehow ordained by God to be into exsistence. It's hard to debate when the only argument is "But they're illegal!" When the other side does not acknowledge the fact that there is a gray element to this, then yeah you are right...it's hard to debate.

What is the basis for your belief that we should grant citizenship to illegal aliens simply because they have managed to remain in this country? Do you believe we should have no laws, or would a laissez faire existence be more to your liking? In any case, your opinion of our laws is irrelevant. They donít cease to exist simply because you consider them unfair. Nor, are you the arbiter of right and wrong.

Laws are meant to HELP our nation in changing circumstances. Thus, if we see it's more beneficial to create specific paths towards citizenship, why not? If we see that clamping down on employers is a good idea, why not? See, again, I feel that you see laws as an constant...they're not. They are man made. They can change depending on the situation. Neither are you the one to decide morality. It's an objective measure, not a constant.

It is absolutely absurd to think we should compromise, and make concessions to illegal aliens. They have no right to be here. Thus, they do not have a seat at our negotiation table. Furthermore, they bring absolutely nothing to the table. This is OUR country, and they have either entered illegally or overstayed visas; both in violation of our laws. Consequently, in accordance with our laws, they may be deported.

What absurd, and frankly scary, is that there are people like you out there that believe that we shouldn't compromise. Let's create a second class of people that live here then. That'll really get things right!

Furthermore, everything in life is not a compromise; at least not in MY world. First and foremost, I will not compromise my integrity. Consequently, there are certain things I simply will not do. Moreover, every organization has rules and regulations. If one expects to remain in good standing, one must abide by those rules. Try not going to work for a month without prior authorization, without calling, and without extenuating circumstances, such as being comatose. See how long you remain employed. There will be no compromise; you will be terminated for job abandonment. Try not paying your mortgage for 6 months, with no contact with your lender. See how long you remain in your house. Try giving a store clerk $10 for a purchase totally $100; and see if he/she will be willing to compromise and allow you to leave the store with the merchandise. I could continue, but I think you catch my drift.

Even in your world, everything is a compromise. Unfair rules and regulations are met with protests, and at times, change towards fairness. Rules change ALL THE TIME. For your example about work...that's not a compromise, a compromise would be agreed upon by all parties. Hence debt consolidation, debt reduction, bankruptcy (cancels certain debt, but damages your credit score). I go to work for my boss to pay me. The compromise is my work (which I don't want to do) results in my payment (which my boss doesn't want to do). Thus, both parties are reaching an agreement, a compromise. The store clerk example is a great illustration of how you don't understand the meaning of compromise. Simply forcing $10 as a substitute of $100 isn't a compromise. A mutual agreement is to find another store, find a better price within that store, or you can trade up (barter system, paper clip to house example...rare, but it happens). I can continue, hopefully you understand that life is one giant compromise.

I could be wrong, but I do believe you are only here to dissent. . . . by any outlandish means necessary. If I stated my grass is green, and the sky is blue, you would disagree on some nonsensical basis of subjectivity or relativity. I can assure you, agreeing to disagree, or admitting you have erred, will not render you less than a man.

See, that's the thing. When I agree with some aspects and acknowledge it...nothing. When I disagree I'm dissenting? You are one of those types of people that believe it's your way or the highway. You are only here to change my views, and those that don't think like you. Regardless how irrational you may be , it's always black and white. Which is fine, but understand that life isn't like that. I can assure you that a person trying to recieve a college education will not harm your exsistence. It's absurd to think that. Yet, that is the message that you convey. So I ask you AGAIN, what RATIONAL, LOGICAL reason do you have against them not being here attending college? I know the answer. None. You will say, however, "it's against the law". This is as if laws are God given, not man made.
Obviously, we will have to agree to disagree. I donít subscribe to the Ďbanging my head against a brick wallí doctrine. Youíre right. Youíre always right. Enjoy!
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Old 06-15-2009, 06:05 AM
Yac
 
5,874 posts, read 6,292,130 times
Everybody calm down and get back on topic.
Yac.
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