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Old 06-12-2009, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,175,314 times
Reputation: 137

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeSpirited1 View Post
Wow, just wow ~ you said: "And I act as my belief system dictates. Also, I do not hold in high regard laws that oppose my belief system..."

Hmmm...here are a few belief systems for you - are they OK even though they are against the law?

* stealing because you are hungry
* domestic abuse, b/c "she made me angry"
* perverts that are into child pornography
* serial killers who have a compulsion to kill

After all, it's their "belief system" and they "do not hold in high regard laws that oppose my belief system"?!?

You do not comprehend nor belong in the U.S. ~ we respect our laws and *personally* may have belief systems, as long as they do not break the law.

Also, you state: "Please provide the law that say you must become a citizen before giving birth in the U.S." The law does not confer citizenship rights on someone, simply because they gave birth here. Duh. Stop beating that dead horse, the 14th amendment is not being upheld as it was intended, others here already argued that to death, and you lost.

Kellem, please get over yourself. Seriously. Really. Think about what you are saying and how it simply makes a mockery of the U.S. system of laws in place.
So then it's ok for gays not to be able to marry in some states because the law does not allow it? Laws change to reflect the current moral compass of the population (hopefully) but like anything else, it lags behind.

None of the things you mention are right under my moral compass (stealing, domestic abuse, child pornography, murder) so I do not stand for them. If it is ok for someone, and they do it they will suffer the consequences of their actions. If they want they can lobby and try to pass a law that allows them to do their acts. The same with illegal aliens, they immigrated illegally, now they have to remain under the radar for fear of deportation. If they are deported, well that was their punishment. But it's not against the law to try to change it.

What about abortion or other laws whose morality is questionable. It doesn't make it any more moral because it's legal.

And about the 14th amendment, until sucessfully contested in court is legal. If the people who created it only wanted to benefit slaves or any other group, they should have put it in. Having a baby in the U.S. as things stand right now, legally give him U.S. citizenship. And until this interpretation is sucessfully challenged it is the law. And the fact that you don't like it doesn't matter at all. Now you can follow, your moral compass that thinks this is wrong, and try to change it.
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Old 06-12-2009, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Helena, Montana
2,010 posts, read 2,043,205 times
Reputation: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by antireconquista
Illegal foreigners are NOT entitled to the same privileges as US-born citizens.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
I think this is wrong, so I will do what is within my means to change it.
And I think this is right. Illegals should have no more rights in this country than I would in theirs, I would have absolutely NO RIGHTS in Mexico, El Salvador, Peru, etc., and I SHOULDN'T! So I will do everything within MY means to make sure people without common sense are NEVER allowed to change any law to benefit criminals.
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Old 06-12-2009, 03:01 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,810 posts, read 30,061,070 times
Reputation: 17697
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
I wonder if your ancestors would agree with you, specially when slave owners were using the same argument.

Or women before the law allowed them to vote.

Or uneducated people when literacy tests were used to keep people from voting.

All of these were legal at some point, and someone had to disobey a law for it to get fixed. Now we not only consider this practices immoral but also illegal.

Now its the same thing, except the discriminating factor is geography and lineage. Does it feel good to be on the side that discriminates, and not in the side that is discriminated against?

But I think the concept of what is moral and what is not evolves, and then laws follow.

About my example, yes flying in gynaecologysts. My example was based on personal experience of friends whose families are not in any kind of financial trouble. Families that pay $500-1000/month for private school per child in a country where the minimum wage is under $200/month. Those generally are the ones that make sure their kids have any opportunity possible and plan ahead.

And if I don't like the laws in this country I can do whatever is in my power to change them, I have played by your rules and soon will be a citizen. And as a U.S. citizen I will work my best to make sure that the laws of this country reflect what my moral compass thinks it's correct.
What has your moral compass done to help the people living in your old Country? Why do you want to change the Country the rest of us live in. We don't want what people who think like you want. It's really pretty simple if we look at it that way.

If your Old Country treated it's people better we wouldn't have to go to such drastic measures to protect what we have.
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Old 06-12-2009, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,819,795 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
I wonder if your ancestors would agree with you, specially when slave owners were using the same argument.

Or women before the law allowed them to vote.

Or uneducated people when literacy tests were used to keep people from voting.

All of these were legal at some point, and someone had to disobey a law for it to get fixed. Now we not only consider this practices immoral but also illegal.

Now its the same thing, except the discriminating factor is geography and lineage. Does it feel good to be on the side that discriminates, and not in the side that is discriminated against?

But I think the concept of what is moral and what is not evolves, and then laws follow.

About my example, yes flying in gynaecologysts. My example was based on personal experience of friends whose families are not in any kind of financial trouble. Families that pay $500-1000/month for private school per child in a country where the minimum wage is under $200/month. Those generally are the ones that make sure their kids have any opportunity possible and plan ahead.

And if I don't like the laws in this country I can do whatever is in my power to change them, I have played by your rules and soon will be a citizen. And as a U.S. citizen I will work my best to make sure that the laws of this country reflect what my moral compass thinks it's correct.
When you base your argument on a comparison between injustices perpetrated against Africans who were shackled and brought to this country by force; and foreigners who freely enter this country in violation of our laws, you will lose each and every time. There is no comparison, and you only make yourself look foolish. That also applies to your pathetic attempt to compare gays to illegal aliens. I guess next you’ll compare the treatment of illegals to the Holocaust.

If you truly want to know what my slave ancestors would think -- I believe they would be proud to know that I am willing to fight against the egregious manipulation of a constitutional amendment which gave their children their rightful citizenship. If you want to know how those who fought in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq wars would think -- they would also be proud to know that I am willing to fight for this country they so courageously fought and died to defend. If you want to know what those who fought for my rights during the Civil Rights Movement would think -- I need only ask my parents, both whom support my activism 100%, and resent the appalling hijacking by Hispanic ethnocentric groups.

We are a sovereign nation, and have the right to dictate who may and may not enter our country; and if you, a non-citizen don’t like it, that’s too damn bad. Furthermore, you don’t deserve citizenship. Quite frankly, you exposed yourself as being a DREAMie; so you can cut the “I’ll soon become a citizen” crap.
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Old 06-12-2009, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,633,862 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
When you base your argument on a comparison between injustices perpetrated against Africans who were shackled and brought to this country by force; and foreigners who freely enter this country in violation of our laws, you will lose each and every time. There is no comparison, and you only make yourself look foolish. That also applies to your pathetic attempt to compare gays to illegal aliens. I guess next you’ll compare the treatment of illegals to the Holocaust.

If you truly want to know what my slave ancestors would think -- I believe they would be proud to know that I am willing to fight against the egregious manipulation of a constitutional amendment which gave their children their rightful citizenship. If you want to know how those who fought in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq wars would think -- they would also be proud to know that I am willing to fight for this country they so courageously fought and died to defend. If you want to know what those who fought for my rights during the Civil Rights Movement would think -- I need only ask my parents, both whom support my activism 100%, and resent the appalling hijacking by Hispanic ethnocentric groups.

We are a sovereign nation, and have the right to dictate who may and may not enter our country; and if you, a non-citizen don’t like it, that’s too damn bad. Furthermore, you don’t deserve citizenship. Quite frankly, you exposed yourself as being a DREAMie; so you can cut the “I’ll soon become a citizen” crap.
Very eloquent post----------especially the part that I bolded.

Stick to your guns, Benicar, stick to your guns.
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Old 06-12-2009, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Helena, Montana
2,010 posts, read 2,043,205 times
Reputation: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
And if I don't like the laws in this country I can do whatever is in my power to change them, I have played by your rules and soon will be a citizen. And as a U.S. citizen I will work my best to make sure that the laws of this country reflect what my moral compass thinks it's correct.
Just out of curiousity...Do you love this country, with all your heart and soul, for all that it stands for, and truly wish to become a part of it? Or are you here only for the opportunites, only for how you can benefit by becoming a citizen, or because you think this country "owes" you something?
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Old 06-12-2009, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,175,314 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleMan View Post



And I think this is right. Illegals should have no more rights in this country than I would in theirs, I would have absolutely NO RIGHTS in Mexico, El Salvador, Peru, etc., and I SHOULDN'T! So I will do everything within MY means to make sure people without common sense are NEVER allowed to change any law to benefit criminals.

And I applaud you for it.
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Old 06-12-2009, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,175,314 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleMan View Post
Just out of curiousity...Do you love this country, with all your heart and soul, for all that it stands for, and truly wish to become a part of it? Or are you here only for the opportunites, only for how you can benefit by becoming a citizen, or because you think this country "owes" you something?


I do, if I didn't then why would I try to change it? I am about to get a Ph.D. Degree from a top 10 university in my area, I have a bachelor's degree also from a top 10 University. And I have 6 years of experience in my field and have 25 years of age.

Don't you think if I didn't really care for this country I would just say screw it and go home/ any other country that better fits my political views. I feel that the U.S. Has given me many opportunities to improve myself and this among many things that i do is one of the ways I consider I'm contributing to making it a better place.

About helping my country, some people here selective forget some of the things I post, like the fact that I have put two of my cousins back in Peru through school. Provide a large part of the support for my grandparents and do everything on my power for people to come study here legally. I have even hosted some people in my house while they were doing exchange programs.
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