If all illegal aliens were legal..? (gasoline, drugs, citizens, Hispanics)

[Huckleberry3911948]

granting 21 millions pardons does not make illegal immigration legal. our laws are not being enforced our laws are not being obeyed and our government is not protecting its workers and citizens.

[Travelling fella]

Originally Posted by John McClane

Brazil will never see a huge influx of illegal immigrants from around the around world because Brazil can not even provide a middle class lifestyle for most of it's legal citizens, let alone provide a middle class lifestyle for illegal immigrants.

Moving to Brazil because you think you will make alot of money is like moving to Russia to escape from cold weather.

That is why you have millions of Brazilians living in the U.S, Japan, and Europe. Because they don't see their country as a land of opportunity.

I have the ability to legally work in most countries in the world, and trust me Brazil is a good country for making money, for me at least much better than the USA, where things would be harder in my trade. There are sectors of the economy where Brazil is very strong, and no other country can compete, and this is the case of the electronic music business, you can't make as much money in Europe either, Japan comes close but compare the size of Japan with the size of Brazil, and that's why it ends loosing.

I live in Mexico, I spend long seasons in Brazil and I lived in the USA for awhile too, so I know what I'm saying, there are a lot of myths about the third world that need to be debunked, sure there's poverty, there's unequality, but they were much worse 30 years ago, when there weren't democracies in the region or economic stability, things are changing now, although I believe the model Brazil's following is better, they didn't open their country to trade with other countries because they are letting their industry to develop first, in Mexico they decided to make the country dependent of the USA and viceversa and the dependency is getting worse as we speak yet my country has seen economic progress.

All that stuff of gated communities and no middle class are just half truths, Brazil has a big middle class.

Brazil: Half the nation, a hundred million citizens strong | The Economist

According to the Fundação Getulio Vargas (FGV), a research institute, this means households with a monthly income ranging from 1,064 reais ($600) to 4,561 reais. Since 2002, according to FGV, the proportion of the population that fits this description has increased from 44% to 52%. Brazil, previously notorious for its extremes, is now a middle-class country.

Mexico has a middle class too both countries have advantages and disadvantages, for example the real is a very strong currency 2 reais buy a dollar, and the access to credit is getting better and better, but as their industry is protected, buying hightech stuff is privately expensive as you have to pay a fee of 85% of the value plus the comission of the store. In Mexico thanks to the Nafta you can buy hightech stuff very cheap, and if you can't find it in the country you just buy it in the USA and import it, I've done this several times, with equipment for my studio.

Mexico’s middle class - PSD Blog - The World Bank Group

The ranks of that middle class, or those making between $7,200 and $50,000 a year have swelled to record levels of around 10 million families. That's equal to nearly 40% of all Mexican households, vs. 30% just a few years ago. It helps that for almost a decade now, wages have been rising faster than inflation. In addition, women are having fewer children, and more of them are joining the workforce, giving households more money to spend and save.
Homeownership is the other key factor in Mexico's transformation, because it allows families to build equity, establish credit histories, and move up the economic ladder.

Now I can tell you that I belong to the Mexican middle class, and I've never lived in a gated community, but I don't live in a slum either, I'm a frugal person so I don't spend much money in unnecesary things, most of it I spend it either travelling or I reinvest it in my studio because it's my source of income. I have friends from several classes, some ultra rich friends that I know live in those communities but that's usually reserved for millionaries that live in fear of being kidnapped.

I had the chance of live and work in the USA when I was younger and I used to work in an Carrier that was founded by an American who lived in Mexico city and had investors from both sides of the border, but as my lifestyle didn't change that much I decided that the tradeoff wasn't worth it and resigned. Yes I earned a bit more, but the cost of living was more expensive too, and most of the time I spent working I got tired of that mechanical life where every day was exactly the same as the previous day.

You can have a good life in Mexico if you delay childbirth and invest your time studying, if you are a skilled professional there will be always demand for your skills in any part of the world, the problems that somebody who just finished his career will face in Mexico will be that the employeers won't want to pay that much in the beginning, but you have to know how to negotiate too, I was lucky that my first Job was in a company that had another vision, they saw my skills and offered me a good pay, but in my second job I had to play my cards right to get a good pay, in the third one I had I was able to make almost twice what I was earning in my first job due to my experience in the field and because I learnt how to negotiate, what to say, how to sell yourself, etc, I stayed in that job for a while until I decided to follow my dream, it hasn't been easy but it has been exciting as hell and I get to see the world.

Now the problem of the poorest sectors both in Mexico and Brazil is that they are usually born in a slum where crime is rampant and law and order practically don't exist, they repeat what they see so most people join gangs turn to crime or sell drugs instead of making a future for themselves, I've seen this happening in the USA too but you have more opportunities to get out of there if you want, there is another endemic problem also in rural areas where access to education is harder, infrastructure is non existant, health services are poor if they exist at all, and people don't know better being young they marry they have tons of kids and when they see they can't support them they hear their relatives telling them in the USA you can make a lot of money and provide for the family and they go. If they had access to education beginning in a early age, they would know that they could seek other options, emigrating to a big and bustling city and looking for options would be one of them.

Yet as a conclusion I'd like to add that the way I see the things one day people will have the option to live and work in most countries of the world with few restrictions if any, because neither the world, nor societies or countries are static, they are dynamic and things change, poor countries become more prosperous and things get more balanced, and as many big countries like India, Brazil, Mexico are on the rise there will be more options than Europe, Australia, Canada and Japan only.

[Benicar]

Originally Posted by Travelling fella

I have the ability to legally work in most countries in the world, and trust me Brazil is a good country for making money, for me at least much better than the USA, where things would be harder in my trade. There are sectors of the economy where Brazil is very strong, and no other country can compete, and this is the case of the electronic music business, you can't make as much money in Europe either, Japan comes close but compare the size of Japan with the size of Brazil, and that's why it ends loosing.

I live in Mexico, I spend long seasons in Brazil and I lived in the USA for awhile too, so I know what I'm saying, there are a lot of myths about the third world that need to be debunked, sure there's poverty, there's unequality, but they were much worse 30 years ago, when there weren't democracies in the region or economic stability, things are changing now, although I believe the model Brazil's following is better, they didn't open their country to trade with other countries because they are letting their industry to develop first, in Mexico they decided to make the country dependent of the USA and viceversa and the dependency is getting worse as we speak yet my country has seen economic progress.

The ranks of that middle class, or those making between $7,200 and $50,000 a year have swelled to record levels of around 10 million families. That's equal to nearly 40% of all Mexican households, vs. 30% just a few years ago. It helps that for almost a decade now, wages have been rising faster than inflation. In addition, women are having fewer children, and more of them are joining the workforce, giving households more money to spend and save.
Homeownership is the other key factor in Mexico's transformation, because it allows families to build equity, establish credit histories, and move up the economic ladder.

Now I can tell you that I belong to the Mexican middle class, and I've never lived in a gated community, but I don't live in a slum either, I'm a frugal person so I don't spend much money in unnecesary things, most of it I spend it either travelling or I reinvest it in my studio because it's my source of income. I have friends from several classes, some ultra rich friends that I know live in those communities but that's usually reserved for millionaries that live in fear of being kidnapped.

I had the chance of live and work in the USA when I was younger and I used to work in an Carrier that was founded by an American who lived in Mexico city and had investors from both sides of the border, but as my lifestyle didn't change that much I decided that the tradeoff wasn't worth it and resigned. Yes I earned a bit more, but the cost of living was more expensive too, and most of the time I spent working I got tired of that mechanical life where every day was exactly the same as the previous day.

You can have a good life in Mexico if you delay childbirth and invest your time studying, if you are a skilled professional there will be always demand for your skills in any part of the world, the problems that somebody who just finished his career will face in Mexico will be that the employeers won't want to pay that much in the beginning, but you have to know how to negotiate too, I was lucky that my first Job was in a company that had another vision, they saw my skills and offered me a good pay, but in my second job I had to play my cards right to get a good pay, in the third one I had I was able to make almost twice what I was earning in my first job due to my experience in the field and because I learnt how to negotiate, what to say, how to sell yourself, etc, I stayed in that job for a while until I decided to follow my dream, it hasn't been easy but it has been exciting as hell and I get to see the world.

Now the problem of the poorest sectors both in Mexico and Brazil is that they are usually born in a slum where crime is rampant and law and order practically don't exist, they repeat what they see so most people join gangs turn to crime or sell drugs instead of making a future for themselves, I've seen this happening in the USA too but you have more opportunities to get out of there if you want, there is another endemic problem also in rural areas where access to education is harder, infrastructure is non existant, health services are poor if they exist at all, and people don't know better being young they marry they have tons of kids and when they see they can't support them they hear their relatives telling them in the USA you can make a lot of money and provide for the family and they go. If they had access to education beginning in a early age, they would know that they could seek other options, emigrating to a big and bustling city and looking for options would be one of them.

Yet as a conclusion I'd like to add that the way I see the things one day people will have the option to live and work in most countries of the world with few restrictions if any, because neither the world, nor societies or countries are static, they are dynamic and things change, poor countries become more prosperous and things get more balanced, and as many big countries like India, Brazil, Mexico are on the rise there will be more options than Europe, Australia, Canada and Japan only.

You have described the crux of the problem. If Mexicans would get an education and delay childbirth, they would not need to seek refuge in the US. They are choosing the easy solution, rather than working to making their country better. By fleeing Mexico for greener pastures in the U.S., they accomplish nothing of substance for their country. What will happen when they can no longer send billions in remittances back home? What will happen when the majority are forced to return to Mexico? They will be right back where they started; only now they will have no choice but to support their families. They will no longer have the luxury of relying on U.S. taxpayers to provide for their needs.

I’m truly sick of foreigners taking advantage of this country. They have no respect or concern for our citizens whatsoever. They don’t care that their illegal employment depresses wages and displaces workers. They don’t care that entire trades are now dominated by cheap illegal labor so greedy employers can reap illicit profits. They don’t care that they are overcrowding our schools, and bankrupting our hospitals. They don’t care that some of them wreak havoc in our country by committing heinous crimes. They don’t care that thousands of lives have been ruined through identity theft by illegals. They don’t care that many citizens who have worked hard all of their lives are being denied unemployment benefits because an illegal is currently working using their SSN. They don’t care about anything or anyone but themselves. Tell me, why the heck should we care about them?

[Travelling fella]

Originally Posted by Benicar

You have described the crux of the problem. If Mexicans would get an education and delay childbirth, they would not need to seek refuge in the US. They are choosing the easy solution, rather than working to making their country better. By fleeing Mexico for greener pastures in the U.S., they accomplish nothing of substance for their country. What will happen when they can no longer send billions in remittances back home? What will happen when the majority are forced to return to Mexico? They will be right back where they started; only now they will have no choice but to support their families. They will no longer have the luxury of relying on U.S. taxpayers to provide for their needs.

I’m truly sick of foreigners taking advantage of this country. They have no respect or concern for our citizens whatsoever. They don’t care that their illegal employment depresses wages and displaces workers. They don’t care that entire trades are now dominated by cheap illegal labor so greedy employers can reap illicit profits. They don’t care that they are overcrowding our schools, and bankrupting our hospitals. They don’t care that some of them wreak havoc in our country by committing heinous crimes. They don’t care that thousands of lives have been ruined through identity theft by illegals. They don’t care that many citizens who have worked hard all of their lives are being denied unemployment benefits because an illegal is currently working using their SSN. They don’t care about anything or anyone but themselves. Tell me, why the heck should we care about them?

You have a point, but I will say that at least in my case I like to go deep down on the subjects that interest me I could say concern, but I believe life is too short to worry about things that you can't directly affect.

I don't like the model our governments chose for us, and that is the truth nobody can deny that our governments don't care for the people they care about themselves and accumulating power and wealth only at the expense of everyone else.

Everybody has part of the blame in this situation, the government of my country is to blame because instead of worrying for having a real change, they spend their time fighting each other and blaming each other, they don't have really an incentive to change because the money that oil sales, tourism and remittances provide more than enough to keep things the way they are, there is also the problem of huge powerful corporations that dictate the economic policies in a way that benefits them and not the people, hindering innovation.

But the government of the United States of America is responsible too, they don't have any incentive to make real changes because the money they receive from corporations that profit from illegal workers and slave workers abroad is more than enough to sustain them, they also are more interested in fighting each other or labeling other countries as enemies and invading them for pure greed, killing millions of innocent lifes in the process, Iraq will be a wasteland for thousands of years due to the nuclear waste that uranium coated bullets create.

Tons of Depleted Uranium Polluting Iraq

The fate of them is much worse than ours don't you think? bankrupted schools, hospitals, economies can be rebuilt, but what can you do with the nuclear waste? Did anybody think on the consequences before invading? or they just cared for the profit?

Now illegals have their blame too, it is true they lack education but they could learn to use their common sense, not everybody emigrates to the USA, a lot of people have inner strenght and carve a future for themselves, and I believe that if they have the amount to pay polleros and coyotes to immigrate, they could spend that money and energies in starting a business which would benefit the economy as well.

But the citizens that kick and scream because of the illegal alien invasion have the blame too, it is easy to live in your own confortable bubble full of luxury and confort and don't care about the problems of the world, when has people stopped and thought, hmmm if I can buy my clothes or stuff that cheap it must be because they are taking advantage of the labor of a poor country, or the wars and invasions of my country to others are creating wealth for me, but at what price?

Also it is easy to be angry at illegals and label them as criminals, when you and I are sitting comfortably in our homes without having to worry much, our problems are nothing compared to the problems some of the poorest people in the world have to endure, yes it is true that if we are prosperous it is because we've worked for it, but that's no excuse. I'm sure that if the roles were inverted we wouldn't think in the way we do, I see a lot of people complaining about the tax money spent in services for illegal aliens, but how many people complained about the bail out money that was a complete waste and was much higher? or about the money wasted in wars which has no point of comparision to what has been spent in anything else? Could it be that everything that benefits me is ok even if it affects others, but don't they affect me because then it's a henious crime!

In the past centuries, where there was much more isolation between different countries, it was easy to pretend that everything was ok, and that the unequality and unfairness that exists in the world wouldn't affect us, but now that our fate has reached us, what semed to be a problem of the third world only has reached every corner of the world, which is divided in have and have nots, the latter want to have things too, so unless the entire world is able to agree on something for the first time in human history and seek a solution and a compromise this nonsense will continue. So returning to the original OP, for the reasons stated before, if my country decides to legalize the illegals I'd welcome them.

[Benicar]

Originally Posted by Travelling fella

You have a point, but I will say that at least in my case I like to go deep down on the subjects that interest me I could say concern, but I believe life is too short to worry about things that you can't directly affect.

I don't like the model our governments chose for us, and that is the truth nobody can deny that our governments don't care for the people they care about themselves and accumulating power and wealth only at the expense of everyone else.

Everybody has part of the blame in this situation, the government of my country is to blame because instead of worrying for having a real change, they spend their time fighting each other and blaming each other, they don't have really an incentive to change because the money that oil sales, tourism and remittances provide more than enough to keep things the way they are, there is also the problem of huge powerful corporations that dictate the economic policies in a way that benefits them and not the people, hindering innovation.

But the government of the United States of America is responsible too, they don't have any incentive to make real changes because the money they receive from corporations that profit from illegal workers and slave workers abroad is more than enough to sustain them, they also are more interested in fighting each other or labeling other countries as enemies and invading them for pure greed, killing millions of innocent lifes in the process, Iraq will be a wasteland for thousands of years due to the nuclear waste that uranium coated bullets create.

Tons of Depleted Uranium Polluting Iraq

The fate of them is much worse than ours don't you think? bankrupted schools, hospitals, economies can be rebuilt, but what can you do with the nuclear waste? Did anybody think on the consequences before invading? or they just cared for the profit?

Now illegals have their blame too, it is true they lack education but they could learn to use their common sense, not everybody emigrates to the USA, a lot of people have inner strenght and carve a future for themselves, and I believe that if they have the amount to pay polleros and coyotes to immigrate, they could spend that money and energies in starting a business which would benefit the economy as well.

But the citizens that kick and scream because of the illegal alien invasion have the blame too, it is easy to live in your own confortable bubble full of luxury and confort and don't care about the problems of the world, when has people stopped and thought, hmmm if I can buy my clothes or stuff that cheap it must be because they are taking advantage of the labor of a poor country, or the wars and invasions of my country to others are creating wealth for me, but at what price?

Also it is easy to be angry at illegals and label them as criminals, when you and I are sitting comfortably in our homes without having to worry much, our problems are nothing compared to the problems some of the poorest people in the world have to endure, yes it is true that if we are prosperous it is because we've worked for it, but that's no excuse. I'm sure that if the roles were inverted we wouldn't think in the way we do, I see a lot of people complaining about the tax money spent in services for illegal aliens, but how many people complained about the bail out money that was a complete waste and was much higher? or about the money wasted in wars which has no point of comparision to what has been spent in anything else? Could it be that everything that benefits me is ok even if it affects others, but don't they affect me because then it's a henious crime!

In the past centuries, where there was much more isolation between different countries, it was easy to pretend that everything was ok, and that the unequality and unfairness that exists in the world wouldn't affect us, but now that our fate has reached us, what semed to be a problem of the third world only has reached every corner of the world, which is divided in have and have nots, the latter want to have things too, so unless the entire world is able to agree on something for the first time in human history and seek a solution and a compromise this nonsense will continue. So returning to the original OP, for the reasons stated before, if my country decides to legalize the illegals I'd welcome them.

There are always unfortunate casualties of war; and Iraq is no exception. Many citizens of this country have protested and complained about the money being squandered, and the senseless nature of our involvement. Sadly, our government is no longer listening to “We the People.” They are under the control of the corporate elite, and they answer to them alone. Consequently, this country will ultimately implode due to greed.

I agree that both employers and illegals are equally complicit in this mess. However, you can’t fault the citizens of this country for something our government and the greedy corporations created. Nor, can you blame us for resenting the fact that we now have 20+ million illegal aliens sucking us dry.

Admittedly, I have had a good life. However, nothing was handed to me on a silver platter. I worked hard for everything I have; and never allowed prejudice or discrimination to dissuade me from pursing my goals. I also have a friend who was raised in one of the roughest sections of Baltimore. Her father was a drug dealer, and her mother was unfit as well. She worked her butt off to excel in school, and worked her way through college earning a Master’s degree with high honors. I don’t subscribe to the victimization doctrine. Anyone with the will can change their circumstances. It may not be easy, but it can be done. Chris Gardner (The Pursuit of Happiness) comes to mind.

Illegal aliens need to realize the citizens of this country are not obligated to fulfill their dreams. Nor is this country responsible for the impoverished of the world. You would be hard-pressed to find a more generous people. Sadly, our generosity has been exploited as weakness. I’m tired of it. I’m also tired of being used, while simultaneously being told that I am mean-spirited and racist for not wanting illegal aliens to remain in this country. Enough is enough! I will never welcome illegal aliens; nor will I ever support amnesty.

[stan4]

Having lived and worked in the villages from which the illegals spring, let me just say that

1. A lot of their lives is being subsidized by their government. Their own government that ran the farmers out of business.
2. It's not an easy or always a fun life, but it's not living in a ditch (as many people imagine). Several of them even had satellite dishes and tvs despite not having consistently running water.
3. The army and the social services do come through on a regular basis to provide medical and dental care.
4. Even a remote mountain village of 500 people has a nurse and a school. Not to mention 5 mezcal distilleries.
5. They actually sit around and talk about all the free sh*t the can score if they come here. Like it's some kind of clever scam.

Coming here is pretty much all about getting more something for nothing. So yeah. I will resent their presence. They're not coming here to pursue some dream of making themselves better. They are coming to scam free sh*t. That is straight from the horse's mouth.

[ArizonaBear]

Originally Posted by stan4

Having lived and worked in the villages from which the illegals spring, let me just say that

1. A lot of their lives is being subsidized by their government. Their own government that ran the farmers out of business.
2. It's not an easy or always a fun life, but it's not living in a ditch (as many people imagine). Several of them even had satellite dishes and tvs despite not having consistently running water.
3. The army and the social services do come through on a regular basis to provide medical and dental care.
4. Even a remote mountain village of 500 people has a nurse and a school. Not to mention 5 mezcal distilleries.
5. They actually sit around and talk about all the free sh*t the can score if they come here. Like it's some kind of clever scam.

Coming here is pretty much all about getting more something for nothing. So yeah. I will resent their presence. They're not coming here to pursue some dream of making themselves better. They are coming to scam free sh*t. That is straight from the horse's mouth.

Hell: there are sections of the USA that do not have indoor plumbing and/or running water here in 2009--------parts of Appalachia as well as many Indian Rez's come to mind.

[John McClane]

According to the Fundação Getulio Vargas (FGV), a research institute, this means households with a monthly income ranging from 1,064 reais ($600) to 4,561 reais. Since 2002, according to FGV, the proportion of the population that fits this description has increased from 44% to 52%. Brazil, previously notorious for its extremes, is now a middle-class country.

$600 a month is considered middle class by Brazilian standards.

Since you and they have an extremely liberal/loose definition of middle class, than ofcourse in your mind and their mind Brazil has a "middle class majority".

So Traveling Fella, since most Brazilians have a comfortable "middle class" lifestyle, that would make Brazil a 1st World Country, correct ?

[Travelling fella]

Originally Posted by John McClane

$600 a month is considered middle class by Brazilian standards.

Since you and they have an extremely liberal/loose definition of middle class, than ofcourse in your mind and their mind Brazil has a "middle class majority".

So Traveling Fella, since most Brazilians have a comfortable "middle class" lifestyle, that would make Brazil a 1st World Country, correct ?

Yes because the living costs are different, 600 a month is about 1,200 reais not that bad considering that you can rent a 3 room house for 180 reais in some cities, that leaves you with 1020 reais for the rest of the month, not bad.

Cities that have a higher income like Curitiba are more expensive, there you would pay about 600 reais montly to rent a house, but you would be making around 2,500 - 5,000 reais which is about 1,250 2,500 dollars monthly not bad.

Now a dj in Brazil can make around 1,000 reais to 15,000 reais per gig depending on his name.

that's 500 - 7500 dollars per gig!!! if you play 4 times a month that's around 2,000 - 30,000 dollars a month!! It is much harder to make that in America, unless you are a really big Dj of those who charge thousands of dollars for presentation.

In europe a dj earns around 350 - 700 euros even the big names, Japan pays more from what my friends who've played there have told me but as the country size is small, you can't have as much job offers as in Brazil.

wanna see some pictures of brazilian cities?

Curitiba – Designing a sustainable city

curitiba

Curitiba, ciudad natural de Brasil

Más soluciones para el tránsito « tg blog!

Curitiba: destino para el relax | Viajes y Turistas

Designing for the 21st Century III

City: Londrina, Paraná, Brazil

LONDRINA vs GOIÂNIA vs RIBEIRÃO - SkyscraperCity

5 lugares para passar o Reveillon « Os Brisados

Goiânia - GO - Baixaki Papel de Parede

those are few of the cities that you can find in brazil Want to see more pictures ? let me know

I'll have to add that I know what I say because I lived in Brazil, in the USA and in Mexico and at least for me the country that had the least to offer me is the United States, if I would live in another country that wasn't mine that'd be Brazil without a thought, It almost happen once when I was in love of a Brazilian lady and I almost marry, that's why it will be always my second home after Mexico, but let's see it's time for me what Asia offers.

Although I'll say that so far, I always end up returning to my Mexico, the more I travel the more I like it, even though every country will offer you something that you can't find anywhere else, that's why it's nice to get to know them all. People think that raw income is everything, but you have to keep in mind, living costs, services, jobs, infrastructure, etc.

[John McClane]

Cities that have a higher income like Curitiba are more expensive, there you would pay about 600 reais montly to rent a house, but you would be making around 2,500 - 5,000 reais which is about 1,250 2,500 dollars monthly not bad.

Since when do most Brazilians living in big cities make between 2,500 and 5,000 reais a month ?


If that were the case than there would not be so many periferias and favelas in big cities like Sao Paulo and Rio De Janeiro. Petty theft and kidnapping for financial ransom would not considered an epidemic in Brazil's big cities if most people there were making between 2,500 and 5,000 reais a month.