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Old 06-22-2009, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,357,527 times
Reputation: 138

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Kellem, you only mentioned the ‘act’ of driving over the speed limit, and the ‘act’ of not coming to a complete stop, and the ‘act’ of using a fake ID to enter a club. You did not mention driving over the speed limit, and consequently causing a fatal accident. You did not mention failure to come to a complete stop, and subsequently hitting a car causing serious or fatal injuries. Nor did you mention using a fake ID, getting drunk in the club, and then killing a family en route home. Those are totally different issues.

Likewise, every foreigner who enters this country illegally does not rape, murder, or drive drunk; but enough do to wreak havoc. It has been estimated that over 1 million sex crimes have been committed by illegal aliens. It has also been estimated that more citizens have died at the hands of illegal aliens than have been killed in the Iraq War. This invasion is by no means victimless; and your attempts to marginalize crimes committed by illegals, is unconscionable.

BTW, why do you now claim to have never been an illegal alien, when you clearly stated you had overstayed your visa and lived here illegally? I’m sorry, but there is only one way to interpret your following post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
I guess I do have created a confusion about this, I was looking through my posts to see if I had but you beat me to it.

In my original post, I did mis-spoke. I have not been out of status at any given time. The story goes as this, I arrived on a tourist visa that was for 6 months; then, I renewed my stay for another 6 months but the reply arrived like 8 months later, and it was granted. The I filled to renew again, but during this period I got sponsored and was able to file a change of status form from non-immigrant to immigrant.

The reason I identify with illegal aliens, is that during the period before I was sponsored I was not a legal immigrant. And I refer to that lapse of time as the period where I was an illegal immigrant.

Until I had a sponsor I had no path to citizenship, and my options changed damatically after I did. And I think that the path I followed would be similar for other individuals if given the change.
I have referred to this quite a few times now
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,357,527 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reads2MUCH View Post
Originally posted by Kellem


Did not know you were a legal immigrant living in the US. If you don't mind me asking, where are you from originally? Also, since you are a legal immigrant, I am curious to know if you encourage illegals to seek legal residency here in the US. Seeing as how you came here legally, I would think you could appreciate the way our country works and might want to see things set to rights. I believe you have eluded to having illegal friends here in the US. Are you attempting to get them to take the proper course to citizenship?
I am from Peru. I am a permanent resident right now, and will be eligible to get a U.S. citizenship by then end of the year. I have already had my lawyers draft the documents and we are just waiting for the date when we can file it.

I do not encourage illegals to seek legal residency in the U.S. I have discouraged several people from coming here illegally. I had family members (extended family) and friends that though that it was their only option, I have provided guidance and shared some legal resources with them so they come here legally. Even though I was able to keep myself from falling out of status, if I would do it again, knowing what I know now I would have taken a very different route.

I do have illegal alien friends. I did my undergrad at The University of Texas. Texas has a program that if you do the last 3 years of high school in a Texas school, you qualify for in-state tuition. So that's how I have met mos of the illegal aliens that I know. About getting them to proper course for citizenship, the problem is that short of going back to their countries and taking a 10 year penalty for an uncertain chance at coming back legally; there is really no other way for them to legalize their status.

The only ones that are now legal are generally people who have fallen in love with someone and gotten married. But there are very few of them, since most of them are around 23-27 and the last thing in their minds is getting married or starting a family.

If there was a way to just pay a fine, fill your paperwork and wait, I would be able to even provide the financial support for several of these people, including submitting affidavits of support. But this is simply not possible.

Also, I put myself in their positions, and an uncertain path that includes having to go back to their countries for 10 years, is not really an option. 1 or 2 years maybe, but 10 years is way to much. Even worse if there is no guarantee that your application will be even considered after the 10 years.
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Helena, Montana
2,010 posts, read 2,367,718 times
Reputation: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
I am from Peru. I am a permanent resident right now, and will be eligible to get a U.S. citizenship by then end of the year. I have already had my lawyers draft the documents and we are just waiting for the date when we can file it.

I do not encourage illegals to seek legal residency in the U.S. I have discouraged several people from coming here illegally. I had family members (extended family) and friends that though that it was their only option, I have provided guidance and shared some legal resources with them so they come here legally. Even though I was able to keep myself from falling out of status, if I would do it again, knowing what I know now I would have taken a very different route.

I do have illegal alien friends. I did my undergrad at The University of Texas. Texas has a program that if you do the last 3 years of high school in a Texas school, you qualify for in-state tuition. So that's how I have met mos of the illegal aliens that I know. About getting them to proper course for citizenship, the problem is that short of going back to their countries and taking a 10 year penalty for an uncertain chance at coming back legally; there is really no other way for them to legalize their status.

The only ones that are now legal are generally people who have fallen in love with someone and gotten married. But there are very few of them, since most of them are around 23-27 and the last thing in their minds is getting married or starting a family.

If there was a way to just pay a fine, fill your paperwork and wait, I would be able to even provide the financial support for several of these people, including submitting affidavits of support. But this is simply not possible.

Also, I put myself in their positions, and an uncertain path that includes having to go back to their countries for 10 years, is not really an option. 1 or 2 years maybe, but 10 years is way to much. Even worse if there is no guarantee that your application will be even considered after the 10 years.
Why is the US obligated to take everyone? Also, I would like to see your response to my earlier post of immigration reform not stopping illegal immigration, or do you just not have a response?
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,357,527 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleMan View Post
Immigration reform would be great, but it won't stop the illegal problem. Even if it is reformed, and it makes it easier for the lower classes of other countries to immigrate, there still will only be a certain amount allowed to immigrate. The ones who don't make the list will continue to immigrate illegally, and they will still be attractive to greedy scumbag employers who want cheap labor and want be able to threaten their employees into working hard and not complaining "or else". That, and reform will (or should) make it fair to ALL countries, not just the ones SOB, so there's no way the amount allowed to immigrate would be equal to the amount who want to come. We will have the same problems, the same sob stories from pro-illegals, the same push for amnesty over and over. It will solve nothing.
From a previous statistic posted in the forums about high 50's% were border crossers and low 40's% were visa overstays, while what you say might be true for border crosses, a large amount of the overstays would come legally, after all they filled the paperwork they were eligible for (the tourist visa).

Even for the border crossers, one thing is you have to wait 3 years before you can go, then you plan accordingly, fill out your forms, get by working in what you have to, and then wait, and then immigrate legally. Versus, not being eligible to immigrate a all, because you cannot fill any paperwork, and wait and do it legally.

Having the option to immigrate legally, will deter people who are now eligible from immigrating illegally. Why risk it?

Now, there will be those who still do not want to wait a reasonable time, met a reasonable set of requirements. But then, it's a lot easier to put a case against someone who can immigrate legally and doesn't want to, than against someone who cannot immigrate legally and did so illegally.

For one, I consider myself pro-legalization of illegal aliens, yet I would be much less likely to support someone who could have came here legally and chose not to, than someone who's only other choice was to not immigrate at all.
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Helena, Montana
2,010 posts, read 2,367,718 times
Reputation: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
From a previous statistic posted in the forums about high 50's% were border crossers and low 40's% were visa overstays, while what you say might be true for border crosses, a large amount of the overstays would come legally, after all they filled the paperwork they were eligible for (the tourist visa).

Even for the border crossers, one thing is you have to wait 3 years before you can go, then you plan accordingly, fill out your forms, get by working in what you have to, and then wait, and then immigrate legally. Versus, not being eligible to immigrate a all, because you cannot fill any paperwork, and wait and do it legally.

Having the option to immigrate legally, will deter people who are now eligible from immigrating illegally. Why risk it?

Now, there will be those who still do not want to wait a reasonable time, met a reasonable set of requirements. But then, it's a lot easier to put a case against someone who can immigrate legally and doesn't want to, than against someone who cannot immigrate legally and did so illegally.

For one, I consider myself pro-legalization of illegal aliens, yet I would be much less likely to support someone who could have came here legally and chose not to, than someone who's only other choice was to not immigrate at all.
There will still be a maximum amount the US can take. There will still be x amount of people who can't get in because th US can't take every immigrant in the world. Statistics vary, but let's say 800,000 people illegally immigrate yearly. In an immigration reform plan, let's say the US will accept 400,000 immigrants annually from ALL countries, so the amount of immigrants accepted from SOB is less than 200,000. What do you think those 600,000+ are going to do? Some will wait, most will continue to illegallly immigrate, especially those who don't meet the criteria because it's "not fair". It seems you would rather take every immigrant in the world, no, every immigrant SOB even if it means the demise of the US and this once great nation turning into a third world country.
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,357,527 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleMan View Post
Why is the US obligated to take everyone? Also, I would like to see your response to my earlier post of immigration reform not stopping illegal immigration, or do you just not have a response?
The U.S. is not obligated to take anyone, the U.S. can do whatever it wants. But, there do is a problem at hand, the socio-economical (s-e) gradient that exist over the border, and I do not just mean geographical, causes people to want to immigrate.

Current transportation advances have extremely increased people's mobility to the point that moving to a different country is relative easy (transportation wise)

So you can try to block everyone off, bill the countries for the ones that do get through, alienating them., and further increasing the s-e gradient. I think, that this is unsustainable. You might build a fence, then dig under it, or come as visa overstays. You try to detain them, now you have to pay for them. You put a mine field in between the U.S. and Mexico, or put soldiers with order to "Kill on sight" (as some forums posters have suggested), and they may work until an unarmed kid gets shot, or blown by a mine, creating Human Rights/PR nightmares. And like it or know, even a measure might be efficient, if people do not see it as humane, it's bound to fail. (See current issues in Guantanamo, at some point people are going to say STOP)

Another option, that I see more plausible. Let people come, maybe tax them at a different (Higher) rate, reduce or eliminate welfare to them. But if they succeed in living like this, without being a public load, without comiting any crimes, for 5-7 years, then let them become citizens, or at least be on their way to citizenship.

Then when someone comes illegally, you can say. That the person had a chance to do it but decided not to. Or it was due to their own fault, that the option to become a citizen was gone (they perpetrated a felony, they received welfare, etc.)
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,357,527 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleMan View Post
There will still be a maximum amount the US can take. There will still be x amount of people who can't get in because th US can't take every immigrant in the world. Statistics vary, but let's say 800,000 people illegally immigrate yearly. In an immigration reform plan, let's say the US will accept 400,000 immigrants annually from ALL countries, so the amount of immigrants accepted from SOB is less than 200,000. What do you think those 600,000+ are going to do? Some will wait, most will continue to illegallly immigrate, especially those who don't meet the criteria because it's "not fair". It seems you would rather take every immigrant in the world, no, every immigrant SOB even if it means the demise of the US and this once great nation turning into a third world country.
1) I think the number of those who will wait will be a large amount, why lose your opportunity to immigrate legally if you only have to wait 2-3 years.

2) The argument of "why they don't just go to the back of line and wait their turn" would be actually true, right now, if those words come out of someone's mouth, the flag "Ignorant" pops up. Because that is simply not the case. So it would be easier to deport someone for cutting the line. Since he was eligible to stand on that line.

3) I do not think the U.S. demise would be due to immigrants coming here to work, specially if welfare laws are also changed not to benefit immigrants. The U.S. did not became a great country due to strict immigration controls and border enforcement. The U.S. became a great country due to it's people's willingness to work hard, the great innovators that were here, and the support from the government and companies for those innovators to flourish. The only way that I would see what you are saying being true, is if the U.S. does not wake up to the fact that their welfare model is unsustainable, and promotes people to stay within it.

4) A great number of aliens come here for an opportunity to build a good life (the American Dream) these people do not come for welfare, or public services. How can you blame the future demise of the U.S. on people who come to work. Now there are some that come for freebies...I am aware... remove the freebies...reinterpret the 14th...and those who come for a free ride will be gone. Again, I do not think IA negative impact on the U.S. is due to illegal immigration itself, but due to the welfare culture going on here.
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Old 06-22-2009, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Helena, Montana
2,010 posts, read 2,367,718 times
Reputation: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
1) I think the number of those who will wait will be a large amount, why lose your opportunity to immigrate legally if you only have to wait 2-3 years.

2) The argument of "why they don't just go to the back of line and wait their turn" would be actually true, right now, if those words come out of someone's mouth, the flag "Ignorant" pops up. Because that is simply not the case. So it would be easier to deport someone for cutting the line. Since he was eligible to stand on that line.

3) I do not think the U.S. demise would be due to immigrants coming here to work, specially if welfare laws are also changed not to benefit immigrants. The U.S. did not became a great country due to strict immigration controls and border enforcement. The U.S. became a great country due to it's people's willingness to work hard, the great innovators that were here, and the support from the government and companies for those innovators to flourish. The only way that I would see what you are saying being true, is if the U.S. does not wake up to the fact that their welfare model is unsustainable, and promotes people to stay within it.

4) A great number of aliens come here for an opportunity to build a good life (the American Dream) these people do not come for welfare, or public services. How can you blame the future demise of the U.S. on people who come to work. Now there are some that come for freebies...I am aware... remove the freebies...reinterpret the 14th...and those who come for a free ride will be gone. Again, I do not think IA negative impact on the U.S. is due to illegal immigration itself, but due to the welfare culture going on here.
My point is we cannot allow an unlimited number of immigrants come here. The line has to be drawn somewhere. The people who don't make it in the allowable amount will come anyway. The 14th amendment will still be abused by said people, along with those who don't meet the immigration criteria, or those who are just impatient. Mostly, illegal immigration will continue for the reason it exists today, because greedy corporations want a cheap labor force that they can threaten, take advantage of, and not have to pay benefits or workers comp.
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Old 06-22-2009, 05:13 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,866 posts, read 46,512,309 times
Reputation: 18520
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleMan View Post
Mostly, illegal immigration will continue for the reason it exists today, because greedy corporations want a cheap labor force that they can threaten, take advantage of, and not have to pay benefits or workers comp.

It is not just corporations. They have thoroughly trashed the construction trades, and any chances of a high school kid getting a summer job, doing anything. The University students are feeling the job crunch, too.
It is hell living and trying to make it in a sanctuary city, unless you hire the illegals to be competitive, or have a white collar job.
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