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Old 07-14-2009, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
My point being, if they were warned not encouraged, there would be less trying. At that point it would be suicide.
As you stated.

Trust me: unless it was a bona fide emergency; I avoid travelling through the desert along back roads let alone go offroading in the summer here in Arizona. Unless I have proper supplies and a decent vehicle.
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Old 07-14-2009, 09:30 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
This comparison to the birds is flawed because the goal of the bird is to get food and the goal of the individual is to cross the desert. If you remove the food, the bird has no motivation to come here. If you remove the water, the individuals still going to try to cross the desert.
This is ALSO true because birds are 'dumb animals', incapable of planning or logical thinking, whereas illegals are human beings. At some point in all this, all of us have to admit the fact that human being are either responsible for their own actions, or they are not...period. (hint...our entire 'free society' rests heavily on, and would be IMPPOSSIBLE WITHOUT, the fact that it is ASSUMED that people are responsible for their own behavior).

Yes, I DO live in the Southwest, I DO know something about desert heat, and I DO know something about illegal immigration, (now, and 40 years ago), and I DO know something about racism....what it is, and what it is not. And with all that said, I stand by what I said...And as a Catholic, I ALSO know something about the 'guilt' that's often associated with the plight of illegals today. Still, I stand by my earlier observation:

*If you want to avoid life-threatening heat and thirst, DO NOT CROSS the desert on foot without water....

*If you want to avoid getting hit by a train, DO NOT WALK on a railroad track...

*If you want to avoid a fatal fall, DO NOT climb a cliff...

*And if you want to avoid a sore foot, DO NOT drop a brick on your toe.

These things are only common sense....and if you insist on DOING these things, that's your right, as a human being....just realize that each of these things has consequences.....and so does aiding a person who's in the process of breaking the law.

If you feel the consequences are worth it, then by all means, continue to do these things, or to help OTHERS do them. Just be prepared for the consequences....which MAY include the 'scorn' of your fellow citizens, and perhaps a lack of sympathy.

Illegal immigrants are either logical, competent adults, responsible for their own actions, or they're helpless, dependent children who need to be 'protected from themselves'....you can't have it both ways.

"There's lots of poverty in Mexico", you say? True. There's also a lot of unfairness, class division, and corruption....and still, compared to MUCH of the world, Mexico is a relatively 'privileged' place. So what's your point?

(This isn't addressed to you personally, Kellem....just a generalized post)..

Last edited by macmeal; 07-14-2009 at 09:57 AM..
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Old 07-14-2009, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,881,481 times
Reputation: 6517
I myself have no problem with punishing enablers. I believe in personal accountability and personal responsibility.
1. No one is forcing illegals to test their survival skills in a desert. That is a choice they make on their own.
2. Do we not arrest people every day for aiding and abetting perpetrators of other crimes? Providing shelter to wanted criminals? Hiding them?
3.The fact that enablers are depositing water in certain areas of the desert will in fact cause more illegals to tempt fate in the desert. Word or rumor will get back accross the border. What happens when say a guy like me uses those water jugs for target practice? You see I myself feel that we should not be aiding criminals in any way what so ever. So just as I might destroy a hide for a bank robber or a drug dealer I would have no issue with destroying a hide for the illegals who many of which will come here and become violent criminals.
Sorry I honestly feel no compassion for criminals of any kind.
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Old 07-14-2009, 09:54 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
I myself have no problem with punishing enablers. I believe in personal accountability and personal responsibility.
1. No one is forcing illegals to test their survival skills in a desert. That is a choice they make on their own.
2. Do we not arrest people every day for aiding and abetting perpetrators of other crimes? Providing shelter to wanted criminals? Hiding them?
3.The fact that enablers are depositing water in certain areas of the desert will in fact cause more illegals to tempt fate in the desert. Word or rumor will get back accross the border. What happens when say a guy like me uses those water jugs for target practice? You see I myself feel that we should not be aiding criminals in any way what so ever. So just as I might destroy a hide for a bank robber or a drug dealer I would have no issue with destroying a hide for the illegals who many of which will come here and become violent criminals.
Sorry I honestly feel no compassion for criminals of any kind.
What happens when someone gets 'lazy', refills the jugs with irrigation tailwater instead of potable, and 300 people get poisoned by drinking it? THEN who's responsible?

I mean, look...here in California, you normally can't even pass out surplus restaurant food to the homeless....after all, it's 'old' food, may have been 'sitting out awhile', and it COULD cause someone to become ill.
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,881,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
What happens when someone gets 'lazy', refills the jugs with irrigation tailwater instead of potable, and 300 people get poisoned by drinking it? THEN who's responsible?

I mean, look...here in California, you normally can't even pass out surplus restaurant food to the homeless....after all, it's 'old' food, may have been 'sitting out awhile', and it COULD cause someone to become ill.
No doubt you are correct and then when the illegal gets sick will they sue because of it? LOL without a doubt.
Better for marksman to hone their skills shooting at water jugs.
My point being setting out water jugs is like baiting the trap. The trap being the desert.
Next we will hear that the pro illegals would like National Guard aid stations every so many miles along the trails illegals use.
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Old 07-14-2009, 11:37 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,798 posts, read 30,034,103 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
No doubt you are correct and then when the illegal gets sick will they sue because of it? LOL without a doubt.
Better for marksman to hone their skills shooting at water jugs.
My point being setting out water jugs is like baiting the trap. The trap being the desert.
Next we will hear that the pro illegals would like National Guard aid stations every so many miles along the trails illegals use.

But in the long run shooting the water jugs will save more lives than enabling them by giving out random jugs of water they may or may not find.

Once a few turn around or get deported the word will spread not to cross the desert because there was no water.
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Old 07-14-2009, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,174,645 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
My point being, if they were warned not encouraged, there would be less trying. At that point it would be suicide.
Do you think they do not have a sense of the dangers that crossing a dessert poses to them? Again, their motivation is not to cross the desert to get to that container with water. They are going to cross no matter what, so I think it's humane to try to lower the actual danger that the desert poses to them by providing water.
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Old 07-14-2009, 02:03 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
Do you think they do not have a sense of the dangers that crossing a dessert poses to them? Again, their motivation is not to cross the desert to get to that container with water. They are going to cross no matter what, so I think it's humane to try to lower the actual danger that the desert poses to them by providing water.
Funny; we have fences around prisons with armed guards complete with 'shoot to kill' orders for inmates trying to escape------------the only difference I see here is we are trying to keep the criminals AKA illegal aliens out of the USA.
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Old 07-14-2009, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,174,645 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Funny; we have fences around prisons with armed guards complete with 'shoot to kill' orders for inmates trying to escape------------the only difference I see here is we are trying to keep the criminals AKA illegal aliens out of the USA.
The key difference being that the inmates, at least most of them, have been tried and convicted. Police officers cannot go around shooting criminals.

Now, what would happen if one, just one of the individuals that it's "shoot to kill" happens to be a U.S. citizen and not an IA who happens to be lost in the area. That would go over very well, right?
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Old 07-14-2009, 03:16 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem View Post
Do you think they do not have a sense of the dangers that crossing a dessert poses to them? Again, their motivation is not to cross the desert to get to that container with water. They are going to cross no matter what, so I think it's humane to try to lower the actual danger that the desert poses to them by providing water.
While there's an ENORMOUS gulf between those who advocate 'shoot to kill' orders, and those who advocate simply NOT placing water jugs out to enable trespassers, in reference to your above point about 'lowering the danger', I suppose you're correct. But couldn't the same thing be said about the 'dangers' inherent in ANY petty crime? I'm sure that those who have tall fences around their property.....or guard dogs....or alarm systems connected to the Police department....or security officers with guns....would make the job of 'thief' or 'trespasser' much safer, if they removed these obstacles and let the thieves do their work in safety. But how many people would agree with removing these things?

If you left all your belongings outside on your front lawn, then you'd spare any possible thief the charge of 'housebreaking' or 'burglary'....all he'd face, if he took your property, would be a theft charge. Is that a 'humane' thing to do, or a stupid one? Would this be a 'kind' thing to do (that of providing thieves a 'safe environment'), since, as you've alluded, "those who are thieves are going to be thieves ANYWAY, whether we 'help' them or not.."?

Just wondering.
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