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Old 07-20-2009, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by contachster View Post
What if a Latino who was born in the USA started to speak Spanish on your property? Would you ask him to leave? And how do you know the Latino speaking English on your property was not an illegal immigrant? Many come here as toddlers illegally and grow up to speak perfect English. So your post has left me confused, are you anti-illegal immigrant, or against anyone who does not speak English, or people who are bi-lingual, or is it all of the aforementioned?
Anymore; the phrase probable cause comes to mind...........

To be blunt: unless said Latino (or any other race/ethnicity) has a green card; his lack of English speaking capabilities would be a red flag unto itself.

Sad to say: I do see a return of apartheid/Jim Crow laws pertaining to at least Spanish speakers unless there is a concerted effort to expel as many illegals as possible.
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Old 07-20-2009, 07:38 PM
 
380 posts, read 612,066 times
Reputation: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Anymore; the phrase probable cause comes to mind...........

To be blunt: unless said Latino (or any other race/ethnicity) has a green card; his lack of English speaking capabilities would be a red flag unto itself.

Sad to say: I do see a return of apartheid/Jim Crow laws pertaining to at least Spanish speakers unless there is a concerted effort to expel as many illegals as possible.
I think that my reality is quite different than yours, being that I live in the New York metroploitan area and you in Arizona. There are so many different faces and races speaking Spanish here that if anyone even suggested what you did in your last sentence they would be dismissed as a lunatic. There is a huge bi-lingual community that numbers in the millions in the NY metro area. Most are legal and either Puerto Rican, Cuban, Dominican, Columbian, Ecuadorian, or Mexican; and to suggest that there is a possibility of Jim Crow returning in this area is ludacris. Not even to mention that the Supreme Court ruled that Jim Crow and seperate but equal treatment was unconstitutional and violated the 13th and 14th ammendments with it's ruling in the 1954 cases of Brown vs. The Board of Education of Topeka and in Bolling vs. Sharpe. Also, to say that apartheid is possible in the near future in the US is just an absolutely looney statement. However, could you humor me by giving me some hypothetical examples of how the current situation and attitudes you and others harbor toward Spanish speaking illegal immigrants would evolve into implementing Jim Crow or apartheid?
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Old 07-20-2009, 08:09 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by contachster View Post
I think that my reality is quite different than yours, being that I live in the New York metroploitan area and you in Arizona. There are so many different faces and races speaking Spanish here that if anyone even suggested what you did in your last sentence they would be dismissed as a lunatic. There is a huge bi-lingual community that numbers in the millions in the NY metro area. Most are legal and either Puerto Rican, Cuban, Dominican, Columbian, Ecuadorian, or Mexican; and to suggest that there is a possibility of Jim Crow returning in this area is ludacris. Not even to mention that the Supreme Court ruled that Jim Crow and seperate but equal treatment was unconstitutional and violated the 13th and 14th ammendments with it's ruling in the 1954 cases of Brown vs. The Board of Education of Topeka and in Bolling vs. Sharpe. Also, to say that apartheid is possible in the near future in the US is just an absolutely looney statement. However, could you humor me by giving me some hypothetical examples of how the current situation and attitudes you and others harbor toward Spanish speaking illegal immigrants would evolve into implementing Jim Crow or apartheid?
Point taken.

I misspoke stating that Jim Crow law will return------------although, I can easily see a de facto variant pop up with blatant discrimination against monolingual Spanish speakers here in the west.

More and more people here want the W/B's gone-----------and, they are indeed scurrying away as we speak
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Old 07-21-2009, 08:23 AM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,709,656 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by contachster View Post
I think that my reality is quite different than yours, being that I live in the New York metroploitan area and you in Arizona. There are so many different faces and races speaking Spanish here that if anyone even suggested what you did in your last sentence they would be dismissed as a lunatic. There is a huge bi-lingual community that numbers in the millions in the NY metro area. Most are legal and either Puerto Rican, Cuban, Dominican, Columbian, Ecuadorian, or Mexican; and to suggest that there is a possibility of Jim Crow returning in this area is ludacris. Not even to mention that the Supreme Court ruled that Jim Crow and seperate but equal treatment was unconstitutional and violated the 13th and 14th ammendments with it's ruling in the 1954 cases of Brown vs. The Board of Education of Topeka and in Bolling vs. Sharpe. Also, to say that apartheid is possible in the near future in the US is just an absolutely looney statement. However, could you humor me by giving me some hypothetical examples of how the current situation and attitudes you and others harbor toward Spanish speaking illegal immigrants would evolve into implementing Jim Crow or apartheid?
What's ludacris?
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:02 AM
 
380 posts, read 612,066 times
Reputation: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
What's ludacris?
Oh , sorry, I spelled it wrong; it is ludicrous. I usually spell most words correctly but everyone makes a mistake once in a while, even an intelligent, judicious, and ivy league educated person such as myself.
It is wonderful to know that you pay such close attention to my posts and any mistakes they might contain, andreabeth. While I usually do not agree with the opinions you espouse I have to admit that you are definetely a prurient poster even though many of your posts are insalubrious. Hopefully your concern about my grammar is not ephemeral because it is always healthy to know that someone is paying special attention to you. I say this because there is a lot of spelling errors going on in these threads all the time and most people usually do not correct each other. So thank you again for your special concern.

Last edited by contachster; 07-21-2009 at 09:17 AM..
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:14 AM
 
380 posts, read 612,066 times
Reputation: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Point taken.

I misspoke stating that Jim Crow law will return------------although, I can easily see a de facto variant pop up with blatant discrimination against monolingual Spanish speakers here in the west.

More and more people here want the W/B's gone-----------and, they are indeed scurrying away as we speak
That's ok everyone makes a little semantical mistake now and then. I just wanted to be sure what you meant because that is a pretty serious prediction that you are making. What you suggest might happen goes beyond the realm of illegal immigration but could very well happen. We don't need to look to far back in history to see how specific segments of the population have been discriminated against based on language, race, national origin, or political beliefs.
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:16 AM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,709,656 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by contachster View Post
Oh , sorry, I spelled it wrong; it is ludicrous. I usually spell most words correctly but everyone makes a mistake once in a while, even an intelligent, judicious, and ivy league educated person such as myself.
It is wonderful to know that you pay such close attention to my posts and any mistakes they might contain, andreabeth. While I usually do not agree with the opinions you espouse I have to admit that you are definetely a prurient poster even though many of your posts are insalubrious. Hopefully your concern about my grammar is not ephemeral because it is always healthy to know that someone is paying special attention to you. I say this because there is a lot of spelling errors going on in these threads all the time and most people usually do not correct each other. So thank you again for your concern.
ROFL! It's definitely, not definetely. I am pleased that you are aware that ' there is a lot of spelling errors going on in these threads'. There are also alot of grammatical errors going on in these threads and they are the kind of errors that an Ivy League educated PhD and Juris Doctor would not make. Keep DREAMing.
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:34 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by contachster View Post
I think that my reality is quite different than yours, being that I live in the New York metroploitan area and you in Arizona. There are so many different faces and races speaking Spanish here that if anyone even suggested what you did in your last sentence they would be dismissed as a lunatic. There is a huge bi-lingual community that numbers in the millions in the NY metro area. Most are legal and either Puerto Rican, Cuban, Dominican, Columbian, Ecuadorian, or Mexican; and to suggest that there is a possibility of Jim Crow returning in this area is ludacris. Not even to mention that the Supreme Court ruled that Jim Crow and seperate but equal treatment was unconstitutional and violated the 13th and 14th ammendments with it's ruling in the 1954 cases of Brown vs. The Board of Education of Topeka and in Bolling vs. Sharpe. Also, to say that apartheid is possible in the near future in the US is just an absolutely looney statement. However, could you humor me by giving me some hypothetical examples of how the current situation and attitudes you and others harbor toward Spanish speaking illegal immigrants would evolve into implementing Jim Crow or apartheid?
I'll address this....disregarding, for the moment, that the New York metropolitan area is pretty much unique unto itself, and hardly compares in most ways with any other part of the US...(in other words, if the whole US were 'run' like New York City is, would it survive as a viable nation? Maybe...maybe not).

All that aside for a moment, I'll address the 'apartheid' point. I'll first state that I have LONG familiarity with the 'illegal' situation in MY area (S. California) and have seen it change dramatically in recent years. I'm also aware of much of the 'racist' angle, married as I am for nearly four decades to a person often assumed to be "a Mexican"...but who, in actuality, is a native, Spanish-surnamed American Indian. It DOES get complex.

"Apartheid"? "Jim Crow"...no...these will never happen. Our society would neither accept, nor condone this stuff. However, I CAN forsee all sorts of 'balkanization' and a retreat into a FAR more 'tribal' mindset in the future, as things deteriorate, groups rub up against each other in an increasingly hostile way, and YOUR sense of what constitutes a 'good citizen' increasingly differs from MINE....and BOTH of our notions of this disagree with someone else's, etc etc etc.

Illegal immigration and its enormous controversy are not the WHOLE problem ,of course...but it's certainly a large part of it. If the notion of illegal immigration is not seen as a simple violation of the LAW...and of national sovereignty; if, instead, it's seen as an 'ethnic' struggle, and those involved in the controversy (as we are on this forum, all of us) are seen as either being "for" or "against" some ethnic group...AND if this "ethnic"(racial ?) struggle then expands out into OTHER facets of life....then I can certainly see an increasing 'balkanization' of society, a retreat into one's 'tribe', and eventually, a realization that ALL of us will simply be unable to agree on much of ANYTHING, and the remedy we'll reluctantly impose, is an ever-tightening set of laws and 'rules', imposed upon ALL of us, to keep our disagreements from erupting into violence...and that MAY NOT be a description of 'apartheid', but it certainly doesn't sound like a 'nice' society to live in, either.

This is a more-or-less 'voluntary' society. It HAS been a pretty benevolent place to live, for the most part. Traditionally, we Americans...95% of us, have obeyed the law 95% of the time, not because we "had" to....not because we were being "watched"...but because the laws of OUR society have been self-imposed, and mostly "good" laws.

If we're now going to enter an era in which we no longer BELIEVE in the 'rightness' of our own laws....and no longer see the 'need' to obey them, unless it's convenient..then I can ASSURE you of a more repressive, more draconian future for all of us.

Ultimately, illegal immigration is simply a matter of 'trespassing'. It's plainly, clearly, a violation of the law, no different in many respects than failing to pay your taxes, practicing medicine without a license, or building a room addition on your home without a permit. Yet you never hear of a 'controversy' regarding these things...why, then, is there a 'controversy' over illegal immigration? Answer...because it can be twisted around to be presented as a 'racial' issue. And regardless of what anyone says, I can promise you this...If we can't 'get a handle' on this 'illegal' issue, and if we can't come to SOME sort of agreement on it, then eventually someone will step in and settle the problem FOR US. And you know what THAT can lead to.

"Apartheid"?.."Jim Crow"?...no..those are simply overstatements. But I will predict a harsher, more contentious, less free society. Either we 'govern ourselves', or someone will show up who will 'govern us'. And 'governing ourselves' demands that we agree to obey the laws that constitute the framework of our society. And plainly, in the matter of illegal immigration, we're not 'agreeing' to do this, at all. We fail to do this at our own peril.
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:54 AM
 
380 posts, read 612,066 times
Reputation: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
ROFL! It's definitely, not definetely. I am pleased that you are aware that ' there is a lot of spelling errors going on in these threads'. There are also alot of grammatical errors going on in these threads and they are the kind of errors that an Ivy League educated PhD and Juris Doctor would not make. Keep DREAMing.
You got it!!! I purposely planted some errors in my last post but you did not find them all yet. Why is it hard for you to believe that I posses said degrees? Many people get into ivy league schools based on qualities other than intelligence. George Bush comes to mind. He got in because of his daddy. I got in because I am a minority who graduated at the top of my class at a terrible high school in Newark, NJ which was really easy to do. Ivy league schools like to admit people like me. I had my choice of three different east coast ivy league schools all offering me a free education. Maybe my SAT scores were a fluke or I was just really on top of my game when I took them.
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Old 07-21-2009, 10:52 AM
 
380 posts, read 612,066 times
Reputation: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'll address this....disregarding, for the moment, that the New York metropolitan area is pretty much unique unto itself, and hardly compares in most ways with any other part of the US...(in other words, if the whole US were 'run' like New York City is, would it survive as a viable nation? Maybe...maybe not).

All that aside for a moment, I'll address the 'apartheid' point. I'll first state that I have LONG familiarity with the 'illegal' situation in MY area (S. California) and have seen it change dramatically in recent years. I'm also aware of much of the 'racist' angle, married as I am for nearly four decades to a person often assumed to be "a Mexican"...but who, in actuality, is a native, Spanish-surnamed American Indian. It DOES get complex.

"Apartheid"? "Jim Crow"...no...these will never happen. Our society would neither accept, nor condone this stuff. However, I CAN forsee all sorts of 'balkanization' and a retreat into a FAR more 'tribal' mindset in the future, as things deteriorate, groups rub up against each other in an increasingly hostile way, and YOUR sense of what constitutes a 'good citizen' increasingly differs from MINE....and BOTH of our notions of this disagree with someone else's, etc etc etc.

Illegal immigration and its enormous controversy are not the WHOLE problem ,of course...but it's certainly a large part of it. If the notion of illegal immigration is not seen as a simple violation of the LAW...and of national sovereignty; if, instead, it's seen as an 'ethnic' struggle, and those involved in the controversy (as we are on this forum, all of us) are seen as either being "for" or "against" some ethnic group...AND if this "ethnic"(racial ?) struggle then expands out into OTHER facets of life....then I can certainly see an increasing 'balkanization' of society, a retreat into one's 'tribe', and eventually, a realization that ALL of us will simply be unable to agree on much of ANYTHING, and the remedy we'll reluctantly impose, is an ever-tightening set of laws and 'rules', imposed upon ALL of us, to keep our disagreements from erupting into violence...and that MAY NOT be a description of 'apartheid', but it certainly doesn't sound like a 'nice' society to live in, either.

This is a more-or-less 'voluntary' society. It HAS been a pretty benevolent place to live, for the most part. Traditionally, we Americans...95% of us, have obeyed the law 95% of the time, not because we "had" to....not because we were being "watched"...but because the laws of OUR society have been self-imposed, and mostly "good" laws.

If we're now going to enter an era in which we no longer BELIEVE in the 'rightness' of our own laws....and no longer see the 'need' to obey them, unless it's convenient..then I can ASSURE you of a more repressive, more draconian future for all of us.

Ultimately, illegal immigration is simply a matter of 'trespassing'. It's plainly, clearly, a violation of the law, no different in many respects than failing to pay your taxes, practicing medicine without a license, or building a room addition on your home without a permit. Yet you never hear of a 'controversy' regarding these things...why, then, is there a 'controversy' over illegal immigration? Answer...because it can be twisted around to be presented as a 'racial' issue. And regardless of what anyone says, I can promise you this...If we can't 'get a handle' on this 'illegal' issue, and if we can't come to SOME sort of agreement on it, then eventually someone will step in and settle the problem FOR US. And you know what THAT can lead to.

"Apartheid"?.."Jim Crow"?...no..those are simply overstatements. But I will predict a harsher, more contentious, less free society. Either we 'govern ourselves', or someone will show up who will 'govern us'. And 'governing ourselves' demands that we agree to obey the laws that constitute the framework of our society. And plainly, in the matter of illegal immigration, we're not 'agreeing' to do this, at all. We fail to do this at our own peril.
I know that the NY metro area is unique and cannot be fairly compared to other areas of the country in some respects, that is why I make it clear sometimes about where I live when I submit certain posts. There are many illegal immigrants in my area but I think the situation concerning them is very different from the way it is in your state.
Your post makes very good sense and I happen to agree that some of your predictions may come to pass. I cannot speak for anyone else but let me say this: I am not "pro-illegal immigration." I do not support La Raza or any groups like it. In none of my posts do I claim that "whitey stole the Mexicans land" or anything like this. However, I do not think the crime of crossing the border illegally is as simple a matter as you claim it to be. Is it trespassing: YES. But that is oversimplifying the issue.
That being said, I will to try to put my views about illegal immigration into a nut shell, if that is possible to do:

The US government is perfectly capable of sealing the border. It wont close the border in any effective way because of the pressure from powerful groups and industries who profit from it. So to placate people who scream about the invasion of our country they use the Border Patrol and ICE to make some arrests and raids to make it look they are seriously trying to combat the problem. These actions do not even come close to making a dent. When illegal immigration is no longer profitable for whatever reason it will end. At the risk of sounding cliche, money is the root of all evil. I think too many people put the blame squarely at the feet of illegal immigrants. While they certainly are guilty of a crime, the real guilty parties are people who live and were born in the USA. I refuse to believe that over 20 million people came into this countrty illegally without being abetted by the US government. The problem is now way out of control. Massive deportations is not the answer. It just wont happen and if it was tried I believe it would be an unmitigated disaster. I truly believe that another amnesty is the only answer. Would it be an ideal solution: ABSOLUTELY NOT. I know I get crucified by people for suggesting this but I think it is the only realistic and feasible solution. After an amnesty the US government would have to seal off the southern border for real.
I am very passionate about the issue because a large segment of my extended family are of Mexican descent and some of them are currently in the country illegally. Others became legal through amnesty in the 1980's. Some entered the country legally and are now citizens. And many were born here and are called "anchor babies" by some. I hate that term; it is an extremely ugly phrase in my opinion. One of my "anchor baby" nieces works for the FBI. Another is in her first year of medical school. And her "anchor baby" brother is in his second year of law school.

Last edited by contachster; 07-21-2009 at 11:08 AM..
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