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Old 07-21-2009, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Hills & Hollers of the Aux Arcs
18,953 posts, read 15,719,792 times
Reputation: 16811
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
However, I CAN forsee all sorts of 'balkanization' and a retreat into a FAR more 'tribal' mindset in the future, as things deteriorate, groups rub up against each other in an increasingly hostile way....
The "balkanization already exists. It's called ghettos and barrios, Asian conclaves and other forms of forced or voluntary "tribalization" that proliferates in most cities. Add ethnic gangs, including white, and we already have tribal warfare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by contachster View Post
I truly believe that another amnesty is the only answer. Would it be an ideal solution: ABSOLUTELY NOT. I know I get crucified by people for suggesting this but I think it is the only realistic and feasible solution. After an amnesty the US government would have to seal off the southern border for real.
I am very passionate about the issue because a large segment of my extended family are of Mexican descent and some of them are currently in the country illegally. Others became legal through amnesty in the 1980's. Some entered the country legally and are now citizens. And many were born here and are called "anchor babies" by some. I hate that term; it is an extremely ugly phrase in my opinion. One of my "anchor baby" nieces works for the FBI. Another is in her first year of medical school. And her "anchor baby" brother is in his second year of law school.
The border would have to be sealed and impermeable before any such action was taken. Personally, I'd like to see it done now and once accomplished, a concerted and sustained effort to round up the existing illegals and catapult them to the other side.

I suppose that if my family, or any members of it, had ever arrived here illegally I might feel differently than you do but they didn't. Consequently I have no sympathy for or tolerance of criminals who scoff at our laws.
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Old 07-21-2009, 11:45 AM
 
8,972 posts, read 10,450,774 times
Reputation: 2946
Quote:
Originally Posted by contachster View Post
I know that the NY metro area is unique and cannot be fairly compared to other areas of the country in some respects, that is why I make it clear sometimes about where I live when I submit certain posts. There are many illegal immigrants in my area but I think the situation concerning them is very different from the way it is in your state.
Your post makes very good sense and I happen to agree that some of your predictions may come to pass. I cannot speak for anyone else but let me say this: I am not "pro-illegal immigration." I do not support La Raza or any groups like it. In none of my posts do I claim that "whitey stole the Mexicans land" or anything like this. However, I do not think the crime of crossing the border illegally is as simple a matter as you claim it to be. Is it trespassing: YES. But that is oversimplifying the issue.
That being said, I will to try to put my views about illegal immigration into a nut shell, if that is possible to do:

The US government is perfectly capable of sealing the border. It wont close the border in any effective way because of the pressure from powerful groups and industries who profit from it. So to placate people who scream about the invasion of our country they use the Border Patrol and ICE to make some arrests and raids to make it look they are seriously trying to combat the problem. These actions do not even come close to making a dent. When illegal immigration is no longer profitable for whatever reason it will end. At the risk of sounding cliche, money is the root of all evil. I think too many people put the blame squarely at the feet of illegal immigrants. While they certainly are guilty of a crime, the real guilty parties are people who live and were born in the USA. I refuse to believe that over 20 million people came into this countrty illegally without being abetted by the US government. The problem is now way out of control. Massive deportations is not the answer. It just wont happen and if it was tried I believe it would be an unmitigated disaster. I truly believe that another amnesty is the only answer. Would it be an ideal solution: ABSOLUTELY NOT. I know I get crucified by people for suggesting this but I think it is the only realistic and feasible solution. After an amnesty the US government would have to seal off the southern border for real.
I am very passionate about the issue because a large segment of my extended family are of Mexican descent and some of them are currently in the country illegally. Others became legal through amnesty in the 1980's. Some entered the country legally and are now citizens. And many were born here and are called "anchor babies" by some. I hate that term; it is an extremely ugly phrase in my opinion. One of my "anchor baby" nieces works for the FBI. Another is in her first year of medical school. And her "anchor baby" brother is in his second year of law school.
While I admire your reasoning, and applaud you as a true intellectual on the subject, I still have major misgivings about your views on this. Like you, I too hate the ugly expression 'anchor baby', though I do realize it was born of frustration with the 'system'. Like you, too, I know many illegals, those whose PARENTS were illegal, etc.

Still, it goes against all that I believe about this 'system' here to think that amnesty will have anything other than a major divisive effect. It will benefit the 'few' while enraging the 'many', and its biggest effect will be to encourage still MORE amnesties in the future. I well remember the OTHER amnesty, in '86....and to say 'it didn't work', is an understatement. Had it 'worked', we wouldn't be having this conversation. And I still say that our entire society is based on the premise that we are...each and every one of us...responsible adults, and accountable for our own actions. American law simply does not have...nor SHOULD it have....any concept that those guilty of lawbreaking should be exempt from the consequences if they can show they were "lured" or "enticed" into breaking the law. That secenario, if it ever became truly accepted, would REALLY turn us into a 'nightmare society'...because if those who break the law can't HELP IT, because they were 'lured', then it won't be long before all of us may be found guilty of 'luring' others into crime.

In our society, you break the law, you accept the consequences. Whining that someone "made" you do it....or "allowed" you to do it, just is NOT a sound reason for any legal decision. That's the factor that causes me to say a big amnesty could really start all of us on a 'downward spiral'.
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Old 07-21-2009, 11:48 AM
 
8,972 posts, read 10,450,774 times
Reputation: 2946
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
I suppose that if my family, or any members of it, had ever arrived here illegally I might feel differently than you do but they didn't. Consequently I have no sympathy for or tolerance of criminals who scoff at our laws.
I know a number of people whose parents were illegal, decades ago, who are now against such happenings. I even know a few EX-illegals concerned with today's illegals.

I would imagine that every one of us has parents, or ancestors, who did things, or lived in ways, that today, would be inappropriate, even in some cases illegal. That doesn't surprise me at all. What was "OK" 20 or 30 or 75 years ago, is certainly not always "OK" today.

Illegal immigration was once a minor, "victimless" crime. Today, it's not.
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Old 07-21-2009, 01:03 PM
 
380 posts, read 420,063 times
Reputation: 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
While I admire your reasoning, and applaud you as a true intellectual on the subject, I still have major misgivings about your views on this. Like you, I too hate the ugly expression 'anchor baby', though I do realize it was born of frustration with the 'system'. Like you, too, I know many illegals, those whose PARENTS were illegal, etc.

Still, it goes against all that I believe about this 'system' here to think that amnesty will have anything other than a major divisive effect. It will benefit the 'few' while enraging the 'many', and its biggest effect will be to encourage still MORE amnesties in the future. I well remember the OTHER amnesty, in '86....and to say 'it didn't work', is an understatement. Had it 'worked', we wouldn't be having this conversation. And I still say that our entire society is based on the premise that we are...each and every one of us...responsible adults, and accountable for our own actions. American law simply does not have...nor SHOULD it have....any concept that those guilty of lawbreaking should be exempt from the consequences if they can show they were "lured" or "enticed" into breaking the law. That secenario, if it ever became truly accepted, would REALLY turn us into a 'nightmare society'...because if those who break the law can't HELP IT, because they were 'lured', then it won't be long before all of us may be found guilty of 'luring' others into crime.

In our society, you break the law, you accept the consequences. Whining that someone "made" you do it....or "allowed" you to do it, just is NOT a sound reason for any legal decision. That's the factor that causes me to say a big amnesty could really start all of us on a 'downward spiral'.
It is hard to find fault with your reasoning because you make a lot of sense. I think what we can both agree on is that this is a wretched situation that this country is in. There seems to be no easy way out of the quagmire this country is in concerning illegal immigrants, and the more alarming thing is that some people seem to be demanding that something be done quickly and forcefully to fix the situation. It is obvious that the federal government is not interested in doing anything like this. This could spell out a recipe for disaster but, on the other hand, I have never ceased to be amazed by the American peoples self-discipline and determination in the face of adversity.
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Old 07-21-2009, 02:08 PM
 
8,972 posts, read 10,450,774 times
Reputation: 2946
Quote:
Originally Posted by contachster View Post
It is hard to find fault with your reasoning because you make a lot of sense. I think what we can both agree on is that this is a wretched situation that this country is in. There seems to be no easy way out of the quagmire this country is in concerning illegal immigrants, and the more alarming thing is that some people seem to be demanding that something be done quickly and forcefully to fix the situation. It is obvious that the federal government is not interested in doing anything like this. This could spell out a recipe for disaster but, on the other hand, I have never ceased to be amazed by the American peoples self-discipline and determination in the face of adversity.
Well, of course, in 10 or 15 years, we'll all know how this 'comes out'....assuming some bigger problem hasn't taken its place.

In the meanwhile, all the best to you, and thanks for the discussion...
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Old 07-21-2009, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,157 posts, read 25,991,605 times
Reputation: 3654
Quote:
Originally Posted by contachster View Post
It is hard to find fault with your reasoning because you make a lot of sense. I think what we can both agree on is that this is a wretched situation that this country is in. There seems to be no easy way out of the quagmire this country is in concerning illegal immigrants, and the more alarming thing is that some people seem to be demanding that something be done quickly and forcefully to fix the situation. It is obvious that the federal government is not interested in doing anything like this. This could spell out a recipe for disaster but, on the other hand, I have never ceased to be amazed by the American peoples self-discipline and determination in the face of adversity.
With our very high unemployment rate I do not see how the mass expulsion of illegals would hurt the USA.

Admittedly; such a move would be a gut blow to Mexico in particular, but, that is not our problem since the dependent culture SoB brought it upon itself.
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Old 07-22-2009, 05:43 AM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
15,488 posts, read 13,442,197 times
Reputation: 12506
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
ROFL! It's definitely, not definetely. I am pleased that you are aware that ' there is a lot of spelling errors going on in these threads'. There are also alot of grammatical errors going on in these threads and they are the kind of errors that an Ivy League educated PhD and Juris Doctor would not make. Keep DREAMing.
That is exactly what I was thinking.
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Old 07-22-2009, 08:25 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,157 posts, read 25,991,605 times
Reputation: 3654
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDGeek View Post
That is exactly what I was thinking.
For some reason; a DREAMie would never acknowledge being one......

I wonder why
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Old 07-22-2009, 09:24 AM
 
380 posts, read 420,063 times
Reputation: 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDGeek View Post
That is exactly what I was thinking.
Many famous intellectuals and authors throughout history were horrible spellers. Example: Albert Einstein, W. Somerset Maugham, John Coltrane, Emile Zola. Not that I am putting myself in the same category as these people, but it shows that you can be formally educated and even a genius and make a lot of spelling and grammatical errors while writing or typing.
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Old 07-22-2009, 03:40 PM
 
Location: San Diego
17,250 posts, read 13,397,142 times
Reputation: 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by contachster View Post
I know that the NY metro area is unique and cannot be fairly compared to other areas of the country in some respects, that is why I make it clear sometimes about where I live when I submit certain posts. There are many illegal immigrants in my area but I think the situation concerning them is very different from the way it is in your state.
Your post makes very good sense and I happen to agree that some of your predictions may come to pass. I cannot speak for anyone else but let me say this: I am not "pro-illegal immigration." I do not support La Raza or any groups like it. In none of my posts do I claim that "whitey stole the Mexicans land" or anything like this. However, I do not think the crime of crossing the border illegally is as simple a matter as you claim it to be. Is it trespassing: YES. But that is oversimplifying the issue.
That being said, I will to try to put my views about illegal immigration into a nut shell, if that is possible to do:

The US government is perfectly capable of sealing the border. It wont close the border in any effective way because of the pressure from powerful groups and industries who profit from it. So to placate people who scream about the invasion of our country they use the Border Patrol and ICE to make some arrests and raids to make it look they are seriously trying to combat the problem. These actions do not even come close to making a dent. When illegal immigration is no longer profitable for whatever reason it will end. At the risk of sounding cliche, money is the root of all evil. I think too many people put the blame squarely at the feet of illegal immigrants. While they certainly are guilty of a crime, the real guilty parties are people who live and were born in the USA. I refuse to believe that over 20 million people came into this countrty illegally without being abetted by the US government. The problem is now way out of control. Massive deportations is not the answer. It just wont happen and if it was tried I believe it would be an unmitigated disaster. I truly believe that another amnesty is the only answer. Would it be an ideal solution: ABSOLUTELY NOT. I know I get crucified by people for suggesting this but I think it is the only realistic and feasible solution. After an amnesty the US government would have to seal off the southern border for real.
I am very passionate about the issue because a large segment of my extended family are of Mexican descent and some of them are currently in the country illegally. Others became legal through amnesty in the 1980's. Some entered the country legally and are now citizens. And many were born here and are called "anchor babies" by some. I hate that term; it is an extremely ugly phrase in my opinion. One of my "anchor baby" nieces works for the FBI. Another is in her first year of medical school. And her "anchor baby" brother is in his second year of law school.
You are in an interesting situation but my views start with yours and then branch immensely. I agree that trespassing is not a violent crime and I agree that the biggest reason they come is monetary. That is where we part ways on our views. Don't forget that only a very small percentage of Americans use illegal labor so we cannot lump ALL or even MOST Americans in that category.

I don't know what year that social services became available to Illegal Immigrants but that year was the shift where they concentrated on finding work to abusing the social service network. The fact they they are abusing tax payer money doesn't sit well with me to say the least. I work and I work hard and to see someone basically stealing my money really burns me. Add in 12-20 million and their kids and viola we arrive at where we are today. If you could guarantee me that Illegals would quit soaking Americans by stealing social services the anger might subside.

Anchor Baby - to be honest I didn't even know what it was until a few years ago. I thought it was just another ugly term until I learned that, indeed, it was a situation abused by Illegals to gain some type of foothold to avoid being deported. Sorry but the term fits. There are other situational terms being used today too.

Mass deportation? We wouldn't need one if we'd quit allowing the free social services and get serious about enforcing out existing laws. If we got serious about busting every business using them and did things like DL check points the fear of deportation would create a mass self-deportation. I'm ok with that.
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