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Old 07-22-2009, 09:26 PM
 
380 posts, read 612,611 times
Reputation: 207

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
You are in an interesting situation but my views start with yours and then branch immensely. I agree that trespassing is not a violent crime and I agree that the biggest reason they come is monetary. That is where we part ways on our views. Don't forget that only a very small percentage of Americans use illegal labor so we cannot lump ALL or even MOST Americans in that category.

I don't know what year that social services became available to Illegal Immigrants but that year was the shift where they concentrated on finding work to abusing the social service network. The fact they they are abusing tax payer money doesn't sit well with me to say the least. I work and I work hard and to see someone basically stealing my money really burns me. Add in 12-20 million and their kids and viola we arrive at where we are today. If you could guarantee me that Illegals would quit soaking Americans by stealing social services the anger might subside.

Anchor Baby - to be honest I didn't even know what it was until a few years ago. I thought it was just another ugly term until I learned that, indeed, it was a situation abused by Illegals to gain some type of foothold to avoid being deported. Sorry but the term fits. There are other situational terms being used today too.

Mass deportation? We wouldn't need one if we'd quit allowing the free social services and get serious about enforcing out existing laws. If we got serious about busting every business using them and did things like DL check points the fear of deportation would create a mass self-deportation. I'm ok with that.
You are correct in saying that a small percentage of Americans USE illegal labor. However, some large and important industries exploit it on a large scale, especially large processed food companies and the agriculture industry.
Here in NJ an illegal immigrant cannot get any type of social services themselves. They can through their American born children though. Most use the local emergency room for something that should be taken care of at a routine doctor visit. I know I will be crucified by some for the next statement I'm going to make but here it goes: if they were paid decent wages and allowed to do certain things easily that we take for granted like get a drivers license or get a loan, they could better their basic living situation and then probably would not use social services and emergency rooms like they are now. To do some of these things they have to jump through hoops, if they can do them at all. To do this I would suggest another general amnesty and a fair and comprehensive unskilled guest worker program and then seal off the border for real.
I understand where people who suggest mass deportations are coming from. But I truly believe that trying to deport 20 million illegal aliens is an impossibility. When states make laws making life harder for illegal immigrants they just go to another state or area where it is not so hard or they just learn to deal with the new situation. Most laws that states are making are targeting illegal immigrants who are getting arrested by local police. Most illegal immigrants do not get arrested because they are not out stealing cars and burning down buildings. Before I get jumped all over for that one; I know there are some in gangs and that are criminals, but the reality is that besides crossing the border without permission most are following local laws. If an illegal alien is arrested they should be deported. There are many in NJ state prisons that are now serving 100% of their sentences and when that is over it is on to the immigration detention center in Elizabeth,NJ and then on a plane to Texas and then across the border; and rightly so, in my opinion.
One of the things I have been trying to convey in my short time posting on this forum is that this is not an issue that can be simply solved as some seem to think it is. This spot the US is in concerning illegal aliens was decades in the making.
Also, some try to paint all illegal immigrants into one little box. Regardless of what some might think, many illegal Mexican immigrants respect American values and do want to assimilate. Many have learned English.
Also if given the chance they would have come here legally. The US has made it impossible for economically disadvantaged Mexicans to come here legally. Yet they will be hired if they come here on their own.
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Old 07-22-2009, 09:42 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,646,709 times
Reputation: 3785
If our unemployment rate stays at its present level let alone continues to rise.............the odds of any sort of amnesty for illegals will continue to diminish.
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:06 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,823 posts, read 30,091,418 times
Reputation: 17698
Quote:
Originally Posted by contachster View Post
You are correct in saying that a small percentage of Americans USE illegal labor. However, some large and important industries exploit it on a large scale, especially large processed food companies and the agriculture industry.
Here in NJ an illegal immigrant cannot get any type of social services themselves. They can through their American born children though. Most use the local emergency room for something that should be taken care of at a routine doctor visit. I know I will be crucified by some for the next statement I'm going to make but here it goes: if they were paid decent wages and allowed to do certain things easily that we take for granted like get a drivers license or get a loan, they could better their basic living situation and then probably would not use social services and emergency rooms like they are now. To do some of these things they have to jump through hoops, if they can do them at all. To do this I would suggest another general amnesty and a fair and comprehensive unskilled guest worker program and then seal off the border for real.
I understand where people who suggest mass deportations are coming from. But I truly believe that trying to deport 20 million illegal aliens is an impossibility. When states make laws making life harder for illegal immigrants they just go to another state or area where it is not so hard or they just learn to deal with the new situation. Most laws that states are making are targeting illegal immigrants who are getting arrested by local police. Most illegal immigrants do not get arrested because they are not out stealing cars and burning down buildings. Before I get jumped all over for that one; I know there are some in gangs and that are criminals, but the reality is that besides crossing the border without permission most are following local laws. If an illegal alien is arrested they should be deported. There are many in NJ state prisons that are now serving 100% of their sentences and when that is over it is on to the immigration detention center in Elizabeth,NJ and then on a plane to Texas and then across the border; and rightly so, in my opinion.
One of the things I have been trying to convey in my short time posting on this forum is that this is not an issue that can be simply solved as some seem to think it is. This spot the US is in concerning illegal aliens was decades in the making.
Also, some try to paint all illegal immigrants into one little box. Regardless of what some might think, many illegal Mexican immigrants respect American values and do want to assimilate. Many have learned English.
Also if given the chance they would have come here legally. The US has made it impossible for economically disadvantaged Mexicans to come here legally. Yet they will be hired if they come here on their own.

I don't believe that for a minute. As you stated it's decades old and it's pretty obvious they have a firm grasp of every loophole available. I see it every day at my kid's school for starters.
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:56 AM
 
291 posts, read 353,478 times
Reputation: 73
I know I will be crucified by some for the next statement I'm going to make but here it goes: if they were paid decent wages and allowed to do certain things easily that we take for granted like get a drivers license or get a loan, they could better their basic living situation and then probably would not use social services and emergency rooms like they are now.

Let me ask you this, do you see how hypocritical this pro illegal thinking is? if you come here legally then all this goes away for many practical reasons, because now you are able to compete with other legal Americans for these jobs that many citizens want (this helps to keep wages fair). In turn when the enablers (gov /employers) take advantage of the illegal workers it makes us all slaves and divides us, which as another said ends up in tribes of neighborhoods resulting in a self imposed segregation. once again for many in low quality of life.

For the legal immigrant it goes like this , come here get job, pay your fair share of taxes, pay for yourself ! then the drivers lic, loans, home and all the coveted american dreams are yours. I've seen this play out both ways for years , illegal vs legal paths and guess whose happier, smarter , respected and loved ?

Being a California native my whole life, I can tell you for most of us we have passed laws to stop the invasion. these laws we vote for are overturned by the enablers as a result, ca has the biggest social services bills and the foreclosure rates from the loans given to those that couldn't show income has given us neighborhoods that are empty. Places like palmdale, inland empire where the highest population of illegals live or lived. many of these neighborhoods are ghettos now much like the places they came from. the reprecussions on ca are truely evident.

As long as the political game is about racial rights rather than the laws we have in place already to protect us, illegal immigration will be the ugly thing that we know is very wrong for everyone.
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:46 AM
 
Location: North Texas
23,618 posts, read 31,198,912 times
Reputation: 26690
Quote:
Originally Posted by contachster View Post
What if a Latino who was born in the USA started to speak Spanish on your property? Would you ask him to leave? And how do you know the Latino speaking English on your property was not an illegal immigrant? Many come here as toddlers illegally and grow up to speak perfect English. So your post has left me confused, are you anti-illegal immigrant, or against anyone who does not speak English, or people who are bi-lingual, or is it all of the aforementioned?
Quote:
Originally Posted by contachster View Post
Many famous intellectuals and authors throughout history were horrible spellers. Example: Albert Einstein, W. Somerset Maugham, John Coltrane, Emile Zola. Not that I am putting myself in the same category as these people, but it shows that you can be formally educated and even a genius and make a lot of spelling and grammatical errors while writing or typing.
If you are as educated as you say you are, my post should not have left you confused at all. I feel you are pretending to be confused in an effort to bait me. If someone cannot speak English it is an excellent bet that they are an illegal alien and even though I can speak Spanish, I refuse to allow that on my property. Speak English on my property. I am the homeowner, it is my house, I make the rules. Can't speak English? Can't work for me. Don't like it? I don't care.

As for your alleged Ivy League education...sorry, I don't believe it. I have known affirmative action Ivy League admits and all of them were capable of writing proper English (and forming a cogent argument without resorting to being passive aggressive).
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
804 posts, read 1,175,654 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDGeek View Post
If you are as educated as you say you are, my post should not have left you confused at all. I feel you are pretending to be confused in an effort to bait me. If someone cannot speak English it is an excellent bet that they are an illegal alien and even though I can speak Spanish, I refuse to allow that on my property. Speak English on my property. I am the homeowner, it is my house, I make the rules. Can't speak English? Can't work for me. Don't like it? I don't care.

As for your alleged Ivy League education...sorry, I don't believe it. I have known affirmative action Ivy League admits and all of them were capable of writing proper English (and forming a cogent argument without resorting to being passive aggressive).
I go to school with people from all over the world; for a lot of them, their English skills are precarious at best. I could even say that some of the professors that I work with have a hard time speaking English. I'm in a top 10 school, and from time to time I have to resort to speaking in Spanish/Portuguese/Italian to communicate with someone more efficiently than in English.

What about your guest in your house? Would you let someone in your house whose command of the English language is not up to your standards? Maybe a friend of a friend, or a family member of a friend?

I think that if someone does not speak English is an excellent bet that they are not from the U.S. and that their first language is not English, that's it. The fact that your social group is generally composed of English speaking people does not extrapolate to the rest of U.S. who have friends and family all over the world.
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:28 PM
 
380 posts, read 612,611 times
Reputation: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDGeek View Post
If you are as educated as you say you are, my post should not have left you confused at all. I feel you are pretending to be confused in an effort to bait me. If someone cannot speak English it is an excellent bet that they are an illegal alien and even though I can speak Spanish, I refuse to allow that on my property. Speak English on my property. I am the homeowner, it is my house, I make the rules. Can't speak English? Can't work for me. Don't like it? I don't care.

As for your alleged Ivy League education...sorry, I don't believe it. I have known affirmative action Ivy League admits and all of them were capable of writing proper English (and forming a cogent argument without resorting to being passive aggressive).
You should speak whatever language you wish on your property. But the statements you make regarding what other language others choose to communicate their ideas show that you are a zealot and perhaps suffer from a slight case of transient paranoa. I am capable of writing proper English. Any linguist will inform you as to the differences of typing versus letter writing.
Do you realize how provincial and ignorant your last paragraph is? It has a major tergiversation. As if your sphere of experiences represents the norm or even an example of one small segment of a demographic that numbers in the millions. While you are entitled to put forth your individual experiences as proof for your own self-righteous perceptions concerning a specific group of people; it is naive to think that others in that group who you have not had contact with yet share the same motives, thoughts, or actions as his colleagues. Not only was your statement more or less childlike, from your emotional and intellectual perspective, it was a sorry attempt at trying to put me down just because you feel intellectually inferior. Authors and intellectuals who write for a living employ proofreaders to brush aside a would be covetous pragmatic like yourself. My grammatatical mistake was an oversight. Are your ivy league friends 100% perfect in their actions?

Most good debaters know the power of passive aggression. Malcolm X used it wonderfully, while Martin Luther King and Ghandi shrouded it in spirituality. Passive aggressive debating techniques were actually taught to me at the ivy league institute I frequented. Just because someone uses techniques that you do not think becoming of a certain type of person does not mean that you are an effective judge as to their authenticity.
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