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Old 07-23-2009, 09:18 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,710,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
You are grasping at straws there................

If here illegally------------leave! That bit about uprooting said illegals' lives is certainly not my problem as an American.
Here is another thing that I cannot figure out. You know how they are always telling us that borders are an outdated concept, borders don't really mean anything, they are just a line on a map, etc., etc.? Well, if this is true, then why are they so he11bent on staying inside our borders? Why is the US the only place they can possibly live? If they were truly the Global Citizens that they paint themselves as, they certainly should be able to make a go of it in a country other than ours.

 
Old 07-23-2009, 10:48 PM
 
Location: central Oregon
1,856 posts, read 2,026,086 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Here is another thing that I cannot figure out. You know how they are always telling us that borders are an outdated concept, borders don't really mean anything, they are just a line on a map, etc., etc.? Well, if this is true, then why are they so he11bent on staying inside our borders? Why is the US the only place they can possibly live? If they were truly the Global Citizens that they paint themselves as, they certainly should be able to make a go of it in a country other than ours.
Well, you know... the grass is greener on THIS side of the border.
 
Old 07-24-2009, 12:39 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
You are grasping at straws there................

If here illegally------------leave! That bit about uprooting said illegals' lives is certainly not my problem as an American.
This is coming from the guy that can't answer a simple question? Okay, look, as an American you don't have the resonsibility for anyone's personal life.

However, I personally can't in good my sense of morality see how something that doesn't affect me personally...especially since the majority of illegal immigrants pay taxes (not to mention they pay sales taxes, which DO help fund public education...esp. since sales taxes are a HUGE source of revenue for states...how I can deny somebody an education.

I don't subscribe to the notion that laws are immutable. I obviously try to follow laws, but as times change I acknowledge that some laws need reformation. Which is the difference between me and you. You have a sense of morality that is more rigid and more follow the leader. I see laws as not being "set in stone". Afterall, laws are man made. Man is not infallible.

So, really, the question becomes...how do we reconcile this?
 
Old 07-24-2009, 12:54 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Here is another thing that I cannot figure out. You know how they are always telling us that borders are an outdated concept, borders don't really mean anything, they are just a line on a map, etc., etc.? Well, if this is true, then why are they so he11bent on staying inside our borders? Why is the US the only place they can possibly live? If they were truly the Global Citizens that they paint themselves as, they certainly should be able to make a go of it in a country other than ours.
Here's the thing I can't figure out, how are not able to read...yet able to type? I've said that ideally, borders SHOULD be an outdated concept. But, again, you did not read...nor even acknowledge that you misread or did not not fully my read my posts. Most of the time I stated that the border solution is somewhere in the middle...a compassionate median.

So to set the record straight...I've stated this as an ideal. Again, not rooted in reality. The reality is that there are economic differences. I hope that next time, when you state that people write things, please take the time to READ the entire text...or re-read (I've misstated, and have apologized in the past...)
 
Old 07-24-2009, 08:09 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,799 posts, read 30,044,409 times
Reputation: 17688
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Here is another thing that I cannot figure out. You know how they are always telling us that borders are an outdated concept, borders don't really mean anything, they are just a line on a map, etc., etc.? Well, if this is true, then why are they so he11bent on staying inside our borders? Why is the US the only place they can possibly live? If they were truly the Global Citizens that they paint themselves as, they certainly should be able to make a go of it in a country other than ours.
The numbers of Mexicans heading South out of Mexico? I'd guess zero.
 
Old 07-24-2009, 08:12 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,799 posts, read 30,044,409 times
Reputation: 17688
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
This is coming from the guy that can't answer a simple question? Okay, look, as an American you don't have the resonsibility for anyone's personal life.

However, I personally can't in good my sense of morality see how something that doesn't affect me personally...especially since the majority of illegal immigrants pay taxes (not to mention they pay sales taxes, which DO help fund public education...esp. since sales taxes are a HUGE source of revenue for states...how I can deny somebody an education.

I don't subscribe to the notion that laws are immutable. I obviously try to follow laws, but as times change I acknowledge that some laws need reformation. Which is the difference between me and you. You have a sense of morality that is more rigid and more follow the leader. I see laws as not being "set in stone". Afterall, laws are man made. Man is not infallible.

So, really, the question becomes...how do we reconcile this?
Sales tax? You think that buying a couple hundred bucks worth of food a month should qualify them for a tax payer funded education? In some States it's the property taxes that are the foundation for school funding. IMO if the Parents can't prove citizenship they shouldn't be required to remove the child but should be forced to pay their share. That is the only fair thing to do otherwise it is obvious what the intent was of the Parents, to leach on tax payers.
 
Old 07-24-2009, 09:05 AM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,710,869 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Here's the thing I can't figure out, how are not able to read...yet able to type? I've said that ideally, borders SHOULD be an outdated concept. But, again, you did not read...nor even acknowledge that you misread or did not not fully my read my posts. Most of the time I stated that the border solution is somewhere in the middle...a compassionate median.

So to set the record straight...I've stated this as an ideal. Again, not rooted in reality. The reality is that there are economic differences. I hope that next time, when you state that people write things, please take the time to READ the entire text...or re-read (I've misstated, and have apologized in the past...)
I wrote the following:

Quote:
they are always telling us that borders are an outdated concept
.

How did you come to the conclusion that I was referring to you and your specific posts? Where did you get the idea that I was talking to you in the first place since the post was addressed to Arizona Bear? This notion that borders should be irrelevant is a common refrain amongst the supporters of illegals. I do not know your exact beliefs on the issue nor do I care.

Last edited by andreabeth; 07-24-2009 at 09:49 AM..
 
Old 07-24-2009, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Colorado
10,017 posts, read 16,694,959 times
Reputation: 2086
I wasn't going to get in other this, but
To the pro illegals, how many of the laws we have should we bend for people? How many laws should we turn a blind eye to?
My kids are affected, programs are being cut to provide ESL classes and to provide free lunches. They affected our business negatively, they affect the pay scale negatively.
We have been in construction a long time and have seen some crazy things, do you know the majority of illegals are paid in cash and businesses find ways to hide it (not as hard as you think)? A lot of times they are 1099'd. They send a lot of their money home to support their family, they live together in crowded homes and apts to save the money. They shove as many people in the cars and trucks, that they shouldn't be driving, mostly without insurance, to save money. They do not contribute what you think they do.
 
Old 07-24-2009, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Cali
3,886 posts, read 5,995,057 times
Reputation: 2200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
I wasn't going to get in other this, but
To the pro illegals, how many of the laws we have should we bend for people? How many laws should we turn a blind eye to?
My kids are affected, programs are being cut to provide ESL classes and to provide free lunches. They affected our business negatively, they affect the pay scale negatively.
We have been in construction a long time and have seen some crazy things, do you know the majority of illegals are paid in cash and businesses find ways to hide it (not as hard as you think)? A lot of times they are 1099'd. They send a lot of their money home to support their family, they live together in crowded homes and apts to save the money. They shove as many people in the cars and trucks, that they shouldn't be driving, mostly without insurance, to save money. They do not contribute what you think they do.
Right on Nea1!
 
Old 07-24-2009, 09:58 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
I wasn't going to get in other this, but
To the pro illegals, how many of the laws we have should we bend for people? How many laws should we turn a blind eye to?
My kids are affected, programs are being cut to provide ESL classes and to provide free lunches. They affected our business negatively, they affect the pay scale negatively.
We have been in construction a long time and have seen some crazy things, do you know the majority of illegals are paid in cash and businesses find ways to hide it (not as hard as you think)? A lot of times they are 1099'd. They send a lot of their money home to support their family, they live together in crowded homes and apts to save the money. They shove as many people in the cars and trucks, that they shouldn't be driving, mostly without insurance, to save money. They do not contribute what you think they do.
Actually programs are being cut because of misallocation of funds, not because o ESL. ESL would constitute a small portion of the budget for any school district.

Also, if they negatively affect business, how is it that cities such as Lynwood are experiencing a renaissance of sorts due to catering to these recent immigrants? The only bright spot in print media, btw, are those catering to immigrants. Many of which are ILLEGAL.

With that said, crowded living conditions are much a part the lives of legal residents and illegal residents alike. If you can't afford to make payments on your own, your going to find more people to split the cost. Same with transportation.

Recent studies indicate that they contribute MORE than we think.

With that said, we should somehow encourage legal migration and discourage illegal migration. We should make the laws more reflective of the current situation (more people wanting to come in). We should take into consideration the needs of people like you (I don't like poor xyz type of people) and form a plan that would contingent upon work (sponsorship) or education (legalization via obtaining post secondary training).
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