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Old 07-24-2009, 11:03 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,092,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Look, the chances are real good that I have been paying for their schooling, their medical care, their free lunch and breakfast, etc. ever since their illegal parents brought them to the US. I am tired of it.

I pay for other people's children...We all pay for society. This is the system set in the US. Discriminating and creating an underclass, which is ultimately what would occur if you deny these, is not good for the nation.

The simple fact that one has lived in a country for a number of years does not mean that person can then stay in that country for the rest of their lives. Especially if they are not even supposed to be here in the first place. If an American banker works in London for 10 years, at the end of that 10 years do you think the British government would simply allow him to stay there forever because he wants to? I strongly suspect he would be told that if he wants to become a British citizen, he needs to return to the US and begin the application process- just like everyone else who wishes to become a citizen of Britain. The fact that he has lived there for a long time, has paid taxes, owns a home, has friends there and likes Britain better than the US is not going to get him a pass. Nor should it.

I don't really care what would happen in England. So your example really doesn't work...They have the Queen. Should we recognize the Queen as the governess of our nation? The fact is that despite what other nations do, we have a problem HERE that needs to be fixed...and again, creating an underclass is not the right solution.
Here you go...

 
Old 07-24-2009, 11:07 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,092,033 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
I wrote the following:

.

How did you come to the conclusion that I was referring to you and your specific posts? Where did you get the idea that I was talking to you in the first place since the post was addressed to Arizona Bear? This notion that borders should be irrelevant is a common refrain amongst the supporters of illegals. I do not know your exact beliefs on the issue nor do I care.
Well seeing how you state "they" meaning those that disagree with you, which I do...you obviously were refering to "me". Who are "they" if not those that disagree with you (which includes me). So state who "they" are next time. Otherwise, it becomes ambiguous.
 
Old 07-24-2009, 11:08 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,092,033 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
Sales tax? You think that buying a couple hundred bucks worth of food a month should qualify them for a tax payer funded education? In some States it's the property taxes that are the foundation for school funding. IMO if the Parents can't prove citizenship they shouldn't be required to remove the child but should be forced to pay their share. That is the only fair thing to do otherwise it is obvious what the intent was of the Parents, to leach on tax payers.
Sales taxes are a huge source of revenue for states. In many states, local sales taxes support the community college systems. So a community college in Miami is supported not only by property taxes, but also by local and state sales taxes.
 
Old 07-24-2009, 11:32 AM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,722,939 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:

Originally Posted by andreabeth
Look, the chances are real good that I have been paying for their schooling, their medical care, their free lunch and breakfast, etc. ever since their illegal parents brought them to the US. I am tired of it.

I pay for other people's children...We all pay for society. This is the system set in the US. Discriminating and creating an underclass, which is ultimately what would occur if you deny these, is not good for the nation.
They are neither American citizens or legal residents. They are citizens of their home countries and they are in the US illegally. I am not expected to pay for the health care and schooling of Canadian children or French children or Indonesian children nor should I be. The citizens of Canada, France and Indonesia provide those services for their children. I can think of no reason why the US taxpayer should be on the hook for expensive services provided to citizens of Mexico, Honduras, China, etc. who should not be here in the first place. Discriminating and creating an underclass is not good for society? Having them here swamping our ERs and overcrowding our schools is even less good for society. I think even you will agree that we have more than enough of our own problems to solve. We simply cannot continue to allow other countries to dump their problems on us.



Quote:
The simple fact that one has lived in a country for a number of years does not mean that person can then stay in that country for the rest of their lives. Especially if they are not even supposed to be here in the first place. If an American banker works in London for 10 years, at the end of that 10 years do you think the British government would simply allow him to stay there forever because he wants to? I strongly suspect he would be told that if he wants to become a British citizen, he needs to return to the US and begin the application process- just like everyone else who wishes to become a citizen of Britain. The fact that he has lived there for a long time, has paid taxes, owns a home, has friends there and likes Britain better than the US is not going to get him a pass. Nor should it.
I don't really care what would happen in England. So your example really doesn't work...They have the Queen. Should we recognize the Queen as the governess of our nation? The fact is that despite what other nations do, we have a problem HERE that needs to be fixed...and again, creating an underclass is not the right solution.

To the best of my knowledge, all nations have procedures that must be followed if you wish to become a citizen of that nation. The US itself has such a procedure- it is called legal immigration.
The idea that if you simply illegally squat somewhere for long enough you will be given citizenship and access to all the benefits that citizenship accrues is pathetic. No other country would put up with this crap and we should not put up with it either.
Once again, there is no reason they need to stay here.
 
Old 07-24-2009, 11:45 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,092,033 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
They are neither American citizens or legal residents. They are citizens of their home countries and they are in the US illegally. I am not expected to pay for the health care and schooling of Canadian children or French children or Indonesian children nor should I be. The citizens of Canada, France and Indonesia provide those services for their children. I can think of no reason why the US taxpayer should be on the hook for expensive services provided to citizens of Mexico, Honduras, China, etc. who should not be here in the first place. Discriminating and creating an underclass is not good for society? Having them here swamping our ERs and overcrowding our schools is even less good for society. I think even you will agree that we have more than enough of our own problems to solve. We simply cannot continue to allow other countries to dump their problems on us.

This assumption is that they are in said countries. However, this is problem. They were young and placed in this country. Many never knowing their legal status until they were young adults (thus, throwing a huge wrench into their lives). The fact is that by discrimination, we achieve an underclass. South Africa should be a perfect example of what NOT to do. Riots over mistreatment of Zimbabwean illegal immigrants are spilling into normally calm areas. We simply can't allow social degregation.





I don't really care what would happen in England. So your example really doesn't work...They have the Queen. Should we recognize the Queen as the governess of our nation? The fact is that despite what other nations do, we have a problem HERE that needs to be fixed...and again, creating an underclass is not the right solution.

To the best of my knowledge, all nations have procedures that must be followed if you wish to become a citizen of that nation. The US itself has such a procedure- it is called legal immigration.
The idea that if you simply illegally squat somewhere for long enough you will be given citizenship and access to all the benefits that citizenship accrues is pathetic. No other country would put up with this crap and we should not put up with it either.
Once again, there is no reason they need to stay here.

South Africa has laws that have brought many areas into worse conditions than immediate economic downturn during and immediately after apartheid rule. We should thus follow that example? Simply stating that other countries do xyz is not enough to make it our laws. We have a VERY unique situation. I don't think you realize that, or if you do, you don't address the complexities and the uniqueness of this situation (a significant, calm, illegal immigrant population comprised of mixed legal and illegal members...as well as the extent to which they are here).
My point is that currently the laws and enforcement do not reflect reality. They should.
Morning!
 
Old 07-24-2009, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Colorado
10,017 posts, read 16,728,560 times
Reputation: 2096
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Actually programs are being cut because of misallocation of funds, not because o ESL. ESL would constitute a small portion of the budget for any school district.

Also, if they negatively affect business, how is it that cities such as Lynwood are experiencing a renaissance of sorts due to catering to these recent immigrants? The only bright spot in print media, btw, are those catering to immigrants. Many of which are ILLEGAL.

With that said, crowded living conditions are much a part the lives of legal residents and illegal residents alike. If you can't afford to make payments on your own, your going to find more people to split the cost. Same with transportation.

Recent studies indicate that they contribute MORE than we think.

With that said, we should somehow encourage legal migration and discourage illegal migration. We should make the laws more reflective of the current situation (more people wanting to come in). We should take into consideration the needs of people like you (I don't like poor xyz type of people) and form a plan that would contingent upon work (sponsorship) or education (legalization via obtaining post secondary training).
Costs of Educating Legal & Illegal Immigrants

Imagine what we could do with that money.

Center for Immigration Studies
and this was 2002, imagine with many more now the costs.

Please I am interested in reading these new studies showing how they contribute more than they cost. Please post them for me.
One town? Please show me more.

And they drag down the wages, my husband made $9 bucks an hour in 1990 as a laborer. Now I see ads for highly experienced framers for $12 and labors $8, it has been 19 years and levels have not moved? Yet cost of living has increased. The illegals KILL the wages, they will work for less even, and businesses know it, greed. Not only are the illegals killing our wages and taking jobs, they dont care. They could give two s**** about us.
 
Old 07-24-2009, 12:22 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,092,033 times
Reputation: 822
There many figures out there. Simply put, we don't know how much we spend. With that said, I don't really trust a partisan site devoted to anti-illegal immigration. Much like how you not trust a site devoted to immigration causes. The CIS has been decried as nativist and very biased.

Okay, with those numbers (which I'll use). The cost of education tends to repay back. Denying education puts more of a drain on society. UCSB Press Release: "California High School Dropouts Cost State $46.4 Billion Annually ". High school drop outs cost the state of California A HELL of a lot of money. Thus, we need to ensure education. Since, this cost is made up via taxes.

As for wage depression, there is little evidence supporting it across all sectors. Some are more prone than others. With that said, many sectors are not affected...actually most. This is due corporate greed, and is something that must be addressed. It's not the illegal immigrant's fault (they don't decide the wages). The same argument was given during Jim Crow and black laborers...that they depressed wages. We now know that greed depresses wages...not workers.
 
Old 07-24-2009, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Colorado
10,017 posts, read 16,728,560 times
Reputation: 2096
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
There many figures out there. Simply put, we don't know how much we spend. With that said, I don't really trust a partisan site devoted to anti-illegal immigration. Much like how you not trust a site devoted to immigration causes. The CIS has been decried as nativist and very biased.

Okay, with those numbers (which I'll use). The cost of education tends to repay back. Denying education puts more of a drain on society. UCSB Press Release: "California High School Dropouts Cost State $46.4 Billion Annually ". High school drop outs cost the state of California A HELL of a lot of money. Thus, we need to ensure education. Since, this cost is made up via taxes.

As for wage depression, there is little evidence supporting it across all sectors. Some are more prone than others. With that said, many sectors are not affected...actually most. This is due corporate greed, and is something that must be addressed. It's not the illegal immigrant's fault (they don't decide the wages). The same argument was given during Jim Crow and black laborers...that they depressed wages. We now know that greed depresses wages...not workers.
Please post the figures for me, considering all I am finding from several sources state the opposite of what you are saying, I am interested in readng them.

And yes the wage depression in many sectors is directly linked to the illegals, who take the jobs at the lower rate, we actually had a few trying to work for us that bartered their wage down to get the job. Basically, this post says it all for me.

A Day Without Illegal Aliens
 
Old 07-24-2009, 01:28 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
12,775 posts, read 7,440,508 times
Reputation: 13045
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
This is coming from the guy that can't answer a simple question? Okay, look, as an American you don't have the resonsibility for anyone's personal life.

But as an American, all Americans have a responsibility to our country, and a country is nothing without people inhabiting it. So, yes, all Americans have a responsibiity to defend our country/fellow Americans.
However, I personally can't in good my sense of morality see how something that doesn't affect me personally...especially since the majority of illegal immigrants pay taxes (not to mention they pay sales taxes, which DO help fund public education...esp. since sales taxes are a HUGE source of revenue for states...how I can deny somebody an education.

So, you are saying if someone is murdered or robbed or raped that's OK because it didn't affect you personally? Most illegals DO NOT pay income taxes; they just claim 20 exemptions so no tax is taken out of their pay and change their names next year. As for sales tax, the only think I've seen an illegal buy with cash is beer. Must drink a lot of beer to pay for their kids education, huh?
I don't subscribe to the notion that laws are immutable. I obviously try to follow laws, but as times change I acknowledge that some laws need reformation. Which is the difference between me and you. You have a sense of morality that is more rigid and more follow the leader. I see laws as not being "set in stone". Afterall, laws are man made. Man is not infallible.

Of course they are not immutable. Laws change all of the time. However, here in America we have a system for changing laws; America is not a third-world country. The very things immigrants come to this country for are being destroyed by illegals who think they can change our laws JUST BECAUSE..
So, really, the question becomes...how do we reconcile this?
Deport illegals; restrict border crossings; and if these illegals are old enough to go to college, they are old enough to know that they ARE illegal, and should take the proper steps to becoming citizens if they want to enjoy the rights of citizens.
 
Old 07-24-2009, 02:55 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
12,775 posts, read 7,440,508 times
Reputation: 13045
Default Forgot the most important thing

Make E-Verify mandatory for ALL businesses, from mom and pop stores to mega-businesses.
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