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Old 07-27-2009, 11:31 AM
 
Location: A wonderful, socioeconomically, ethnically, and culturally diverse little town
70 posts, read 65,872 times
Reputation: 32

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Do you have any better ideas on how to eliminate the plague of illegal aliens; most of whom are Mestizo Hispanic, from the USA than using 'profiling'?
I wasn't discussing profiling, but generalizing - demonizing all Mexican Americans because some give "protection and aid" to undocumented immigrants. It was argued that people are justified in discriminating against Mexican-Americans, supposedly because "they" are "turning a blind eye" to illegal immigration and helping Mexican nationals get away with it.

But now that you mention it, are you saying that the immigration problem justifies racial profiling of U.S. citizens with brown skin? How will this help solve the immigration problem? Should we pass an unconstitutional law that requires people with brown skin to provide non-brown-skinned people proof of their citizenship upon demand so that non-brown-skinned people will know whether or not to treat them like every other American citizen? Should a Mexican-American have to prove to others that he or she is a citizen in order to not be treated in a discriminatory fashion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
I am being quite serious here since many a true blue American of 'Mexican' heritage is becoming quite worried as well over what you described.

Although I do find it interesting that 'Mestizo looking' American Indians, stereotypical Anglos, Asians, light skinned Blacks, E Indians, Arabs, as well as Sicilians do not seem to have a problem being profiled while LE is looking for illegal aliens.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here.
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Old 07-27-2009, 12:51 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Hopefully this will clear things up for you.
Well, regardless of the whether or not it's 'Are' land, or 'There' land; regardless of weather 'we crossed the boarder, or the boarder crossed us'...and regardless of weather it's a rational discussion or knot, it's plane to see we got a problem hear!

And that's all's I'm gonna say.
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Old 07-27-2009, 01:11 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,711,852 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Well, regardless of the whether or not it's 'Are' land, or 'There' land; regardless of weather 'we crossed the boarder, or the boarder crossed us'...and regardless of weather it's a rational discussion or knot, it's plane to see we got a problem hear!

And that's all's I'm gonna say.
'This land is you're land, this land is are land.........'
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Old 07-27-2009, 01:32 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marfa View Post
My husband and children are Mexican-American, as are many of our relatives. None of us have "provid[ed] shelter and aid" to illegal immigrants. Nor has even one Mexican-American I know, and I know many. Yet, racism against my family and friends is justified because some people do? What do you propose my family and I do to prove to people like you that we are not worthy of such demonization? Should we become vigilantes? How do you suggest we discern between those who are "illegal" and those who are not?
You make an excellent point; I'm particularly struck by your post in the fact that my situation has strong parallels to yours. My spouse is American Indian, raised by bilingual parents about 200 feet from where we live, and whose great-great Grandfather was born about 3 miles from here...yet is sometimes 'assumed' (?) to be 'a Mexican' (?), or asked if she 'speaks English'. Is this annoying? Of COURSE it is....very much so.

Many of our extended family on BOTH sides trace their roots to Mexico...many from 'generations' ago, a few more recently....and no, in answer to your question, neither you, nor your husband, nor your family, should feel compelled to 'prove their citizenship', nor defend your 'right to be here'. No individual American should have to do that, nor does any OTHER individual American have the right to demand that of you.

However, I'm sure it's pretty obvious that illegal immigration is an enormous problem, on a grand scale in the millions...and one of the WORST effects, IMO, is the 'divisive' quality it has on our own population. We know that millions of people are here illegally, which HAS to be a negative for any society.... yet we can't identify them. They're here mostly due to the failure of our government to secure our borders; the problem has been allowed to build for decades, and now what SHOULD have been seen as just a 'given'.(that non-citizens simply aren't allowed to 'walk in here'...or any OTHER country.... on their own), is now seen as being 'mean' or 'racist'.

The net effect of millions upon millions of illegal 'residents' living, uninvited but 'undetectable' within a society, is that it begins to blur the definition of what IS 'an American citizen' at all...and one of the defenses seems to be that "perhaps, in the end, it's not important who is, or who is not, a citizen, as long as we're all 'good people'." This, in my opinion, CAN'T be a good thing.

"Watering down" or blurring the lines between 'legal and illegal', in the end, casts doubt upon all of us. If we don't know who is, and is not, legal.... but we know that millions of us are NOT.... then sooner or later, everyone suffers.

It would be no different in a large hospital, where 10% of the Doctors weren't 'really' doctors, but practiced medicine anyway....or 8% of all airline pilots weren't qualified to fly...or if 8% of all the currency in circulation wasn't 'real money', but was counterfeit..in all these cases, trust would diminish as we began to lose confidence in the 'whole system'.

When millions of our 'fellow citizens' aren't citizens at all, it begins to call into question the whole meaning of citizenship. And that's either an important thing, or it's not. (I happen to believe American citizenship is a rare and important thing). And while you and I and many OTHERS know that you can't "See" an illegal by appearance; and you can't "tarnish" a whole segment of society because some of its members are illegal; by the same token, we KNOW there are millions of illegals here, and more arriving as we speak. So how do we FIND them? The answer seems to be that we "don't"....and that it isn't "important" to find them, anyway....presumably because it's "no big thing". This is a very BAD message.

The answer (or LACK of answer) to that question is the root of much of the foolish racism on the forum. It's the inevitable result of decades of neglect by those 'in charge', who never should have allowed this to happen. And when 'the authorities' DO not, CAN not, or WILL not do their job, the 'little people' get frustrated. And when that happens, they say silly things. They form groups like 'The Minutemen'...which is sad and silly, because 'the Minutemen', who supposedly 'monitor' the border, shouldn't have anything to 'monitor' at all. If the 'proper authorities' were doing their job, the Minutemen would get bored and go home, and the poor people of Mexico would find a solution to their problems THERE (by all sorts of reforms)....instead of here.

Best of wishes to you and your family.
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:43 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,072,228 times
Reputation: 2244
someone gets it! so as white men should you go self policing ALL the white rapists and child molestors?

thats crazy. whatever happened to hispanics being citizens like everyone else.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
Self Policing?

Does any race "self-police" themselves? Do asian and white people go next door asking if they are legal? If they are running a crime business? I doubt it.

People have their own lives, and I highly doubt any of you would turn in a relative or a good friend if you found out they were illegal. You can blog about it and post it here on the internet, but IRL I don't believe it.
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:48 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,072,228 times
Reputation: 2244


Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
And of course; 'Aztlan' is a fraud anyway----------the Aztecs (or their descendents) never ranged as far north as what is now the USA till the White (Hispanic) Spaniards came along.

And note the choice of weapon: the AK-47; it was a 'White boy' invention.

The la raza hypocrisy is astounding.
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:52 PM
 
786 posts, read 898,770 times
Reputation: 185
It would have been one thing if the sign said keep illegal immigrants out, but it didn't. It said keep hispanics out, it's blatent racism and it's disgusting.
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:55 PM
 
291 posts, read 353,232 times
Reputation: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marfa View Post
Why do you assume that this has even occurred, or that if it has, Mexican immigrants are to blame?

Iam in ca many neighborhoods are very rough and lots blight where once was lower income folks, these folks were mixed race.



But you just indicated that they're here to collect welfare. Now, you say they're taking our jobs. Which is it?

BOTH,, one collect welfair for the many kids and the other works under the table at a lobor job many uneducated americans need



What is that "goal," what percentage of them share it, and how do you know - because of a few loud-mouths?

What is the goal ?, for many to send home enough money so on their return they are rich by mexico's standards, thus no interest in clean streets or quality of life such as assimilation into our neighborhoods.



I've shared a community with Mexican immigrants, both legal and illegal for forty-five years. I don't see the problems to which you refer - at least not on a large scale. It's the exception rather than the rule - the same as it is for any other race/nationality.
me too, for many years and enjoyed most folks. in my early years lived in low income areas and in my later point in life, also have many latinos and mixes in my current area, but the new bunch are not nice, I had 15 years a couple that lived here never ever would consider them not all american no reason to feel they were not good. or outsiders.
Now we have these tribes come in trash, noise, laying around collecting.
most dont speak a word of english with no need to. junk cars, gorups of people coming and going. you know unstable.

hope you don't ever have to feel that your home is being taken over and you are being used like this!
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:58 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,072,228 times
Reputation: 2244
this sign seeks exclusion. and exclusionary tactics are discriminatory. and discrimination is usally rooted in racism (or ethnicism). any way you cut it this woman is wrong.
and i would argue that the sign is not lawful in that it creates the possibibilty of inciting harm against the owner of the house or hispanics in the neighborhood. its incendiary. it can cause great harm. its also in bad taste (just like the hanging effegy of sara palin) the sign is discriminatory. it is racist. how well would a sign that read "blacks keep out" be recieved.

this woman [erroneously] singled out a particular group. thats super ignorance.

if yall dont get this. then that is just really sad. anyone defending this (or her right to plant the sign) is pitiful.

further, some posters have too many generalizations about hispanics. thats very ignorant. the woman is very ignorant. i have seen neighborhoods turn from majority white to majority brown. they have maintained thier middle class status.

whittier, CA and downey, CA are examples of this.

to answer a question posited earlier by a poster...
this sign does no good. IT HURTS THE CAUSE. she is an extremist and the scary part is that many beleive what her sign reads.

my only consolation is that she is in the minority. she is such a silly prejudiced dinosaur; like them she too will become extinct.
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:58 PM
 
Location: A wonderful, socioeconomically, ethnically, and culturally diverse little town
70 posts, read 65,872 times
Reputation: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
You make an excellent point; I'm particularly struck by your post in the fact that my situation has strong parallels to yours. My spouse is American Indian, raised by bilingual parents about 200 feet from where we live, and whose great-great Grandfather was born about 3 miles from here...yet is sometimes 'assumed' (?) to be 'a Mexican' (?), or asked if she 'speaks English'. Is this annoying? Of COURSE it is....very much so.

Many of our extended family on BOTH sides trace their roots to Mexico...many from 'generations' ago, a few more recently....and no, in answer to your question, neither you, nor your husband, nor your family, should feel compelled to 'prove their citizenship', nor defend your 'right to be here'. No individual American should have to do that, nor does any OTHER individual American have the right to demand that of you.

However, I'm sure it's pretty obvious that illegal immigration is an enormous problem, on a grand scale in the millions...and one of the WORST effects, IMO, is the 'divisive' quality it has on our own population. We know that millions of people are here illegally, which HAS to be a negative for any society.... yet we can't identify them. They're here mostly due to the failure of our government to secure our borders; the problem has been allowed to build for decades, and now what SHOULD have been seen as just a 'given'.(that non-citizens simply aren't allowed to 'walk in here'...or any OTHER country.... on their own), is now seen as being 'mean' or 'racist'.

The net effect of millions upon millions of illegal 'residents' living, uninvited but 'undetectable' within a society, is that it begins to blur the definition of what IS 'an American citizen' at all...and one of the defenses seems to be that "perhaps, in the end, it's not important who is, or who is not, a citizen, as long as we're all 'good people'." This, in my opinion, CAN'T be a good thing.

"Watering down" or blurring the lines between 'legal and illegal', in the end, casts doubt upon all of us. If we don't know who is, and is not, legal.... but we know that millions of us are NOT.... then sooner or later, everyone suffers.

It would be no different in a large hospital, where 10% of the Doctors weren't 'really' doctors, but practiced medicine anyway....or 8% of all airline pilots weren't qualified to fly...or if 8% of all the currency in circulation wasn't 'real money', but was counterfeit..in all these cases, trust would diminish as we began to lose confidence in the 'whole system'.

When millions of our 'fellow citizens' aren't citizens at all, it begins to call into question the whole meaning of citizenship. And that's either an important thing, or it's not. (I happen to believe American citizenship is a rare and important thing). And while you and I and many OTHERS know that you can't "See" an illegal by appearance; and you can't "tarnish" a whole segment of society because some of its members are illegal; by the same token, we KNOW there are millions of illegals here, and more arriving as we speak. So how do we FIND them? The answer seems to be that we "don't"....and that it isn't "important" to find them, anyway....presumably because it's "no big thing". This is a very BAD message.

The answer (or LACK of answer) to that question is the root of much of the foolish racism on the forum. It's the inevitable result of decades of neglect by those 'in charge', who never should have allowed this to happen. And when 'the authorities' DO not, CAN not, or WILL not do their job, the 'little people' get frustrated. And when that happens, they say silly things. They form groups like 'The Minutemen'...which is sad and silly, because 'the Minutemen', who supposedly 'monitor' the border, shouldn't have anything to 'monitor' at all. If the 'proper authorities' were doing their job, the Minutemen would get bored and go home, and the poor people of Mexico would find a solution to their problems THERE (by all sorts of reforms)....instead of here.
This is a most excellent post - so much so, it has caused me to question my views concerning illegal immigration. That's not easy for many people to do. As you can probably tell, I am very opinionated about this issue, and I have my reasons. At any rate, this part struck me the most:

"The net effect of millions upon millions of illegal 'residents' living, uninvited but 'undetectable' within a society, is that it begins to blur the definition of what IS 'an American citizen' at all...and one of the defenses seems to be that "perhaps, in the end, it's not important who is, or who is not, a citizen, as long as we're all 'good people'."

When I read this, I realized that I tend to think this way.

You continued:

"This, in my opinion, CAN'T be a good thing. 'Watering down' or blurring the lines between 'legal and illegal', in the end, casts doubt upon all of us. If we don't know who is, and is not, legal.... but we know that millions of us are NOT.... then sooner or later, everyone suffers."

*Mental bulb illuminates at this point.*

You are absolutely right! See, I have always measured this issue by a standard of human value, rather than looking at it at it in a more pragmatic fashion that focuses most on the law and the economy. However, after considering your argument, I'm faced with the realization that I can't cling to an either/or view of this problem. There are human consequences for not enforcing immigration laws. Mexican-Americans are being robbed of their identity as American citizens because of this, as illustrated by the woman's sign, and by the fact that so many people call American citizens of Latin descent (no matter what their heritage) "Mexicans." Somehow, they are no longer considered "real Americans" by other U.S. citizens. There seems to be a de facto 'official' American culture that excludes Mexican-American traditions - along with many other ethnic traditions, as well, I admit. But the immigration problem seems to be enhancing the erroneously perceived 'un-Americanism' of Americans of Latin descent.

My greatest concern, however, is that many white Americans are using the immigration problem to justify their preexisting racist sentiment toward Americans with brown skin. And they are truly the ones to blame for denying Mexican-Americans recognition as U.S. citizens, not the undocumented immigrants. However, they will continue to seem justified, will continue to demonize and ostracize American Latinos, and will win more and more converts to their mindset, unless we are able to curb illegal immigration. Now, how on earth do we do that? That is the million-dollar question.

Anyway, I appreciate the educational dialogue. I learned a lot. Best of luck to you and yours, as well. Oh, and I know what you're saying about native Americans being mistaken for "Mexicans." I have several native-American friends who are having the same problem. Bleh!
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