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Old 07-27-2009, 07:08 PM
 
Location: NYC
472 posts, read 617,957 times
Reputation: 294

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marfa View Post
This is a most excellent post - so much so, it has caused me to question my views concerning illegal immigration. That's not easy for many people to do. As you can probably tell, I am very opinionated about this issue, and I have my reasons. At any rate, this part struck me the most:

"The net effect of millions upon millions of illegal 'residents' living, uninvited but 'undetectable' within a society, is that it begins to blur the definition of what IS 'an American citizen' at all...and one of the defenses seems to be that "perhaps, in the end, it's not important who is, or who is not, a citizen, as long as we're all 'good people'."

When I read this, I realized that I tend to think this way.

You continued:

"This, in my opinion, CAN'T be a good thing. 'Watering down' or blurring the lines between 'legal and illegal', in the end, casts doubt upon all of us. If we don't know who is, and is not, legal.... but we know that millions of us are NOT.... then sooner or later, everyone suffers."

*Mental bulb illuminates at this point.*

You are absolutely right! See, I have always measured this issue by a standard of human value, rather than looking at it at it in a more pragmatic fashion that focuses most on the law and the economy. However, after considering your argument, I'm faced with the realization that I can't cling to an either/or view of this problem. There are human consequences for not enforcing immigration laws. Mexican-Americans are being robbed of their identity as American citizens because of this, as illustrated by the woman's sign, and by the fact that so many people call American citizens of Latin descent (no matter what their heritage) "Mexicans." Somehow, they are no longer considered "real Americans" by other U.S. citizens. There seems to be a de facto 'official' American culture that excludes Mexican-American traditions - along with many other ethnic traditions, as well, I admit. But the immigration problem seems to be enhancing the erroneously perceived 'un-Americanism' of Americans of Latin descent.

My greatest concern, however, is that many white Americans are using the immigration problem to justify their preexisting racist sentiment toward Americans with brown skin. And they are truly the ones to blame for denying Mexican-Americans recognition as U.S. citizens, not the undocumented immigrants. However, they will continue to seem justified, will continue to demonize and ostracize American Latinos, and will win more and more converts to their mindset, unless we are able to curb illegal immigration. Now, how on earth do we do that? That is the million-dollar question.

Anyway, I appreciate the educational dialogue. I learned a lot. Best of luck to you and yours, as well. Oh, and I know what you're saying about native Americans being mistaken for "Mexicans." I have several native-American friends who are having the same problem. Bleh!
If I could rep you again, I would. Thanks for the excellent, educated, civilized debate. I agree with you 100%

Last edited by gf1025; 07-27-2009 at 07:19 PM..
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Old 07-27-2009, 07:16 PM
 
8,972 posts, read 10,715,410 times
Reputation: 2950
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Tell me what they are protesting, west side houston.
I'd like to hear that, too...."what", exactly? Be specific, please.....
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Old 07-27-2009, 07:24 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,405 posts, read 7,981,155 times
Reputation: 2175
yes, but the sign does not single out illegals. it ignorantly singles out hispanics.

am i moving too fast for you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by muleskinner View Post
Quit being mellow dramatic....in case you are confused,this is the ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION forum and that's what we are discussing...if you want to talk about rapist etc...start you a rapist forum.
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Old 07-27-2009, 07:31 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,405 posts, read 7,981,155 times
Reputation: 2175
it is valid.

the generalization is made about a certain group of people. (hispanics). as if they are supposed to be more against an act because its perpetrated by one of their own! the assumption is that they are a monolith, and that they are in cahoots with the criminal if they dont immediately and publicly denounce said act. thats ridiculous

the analogy stands. should white men be more willing or obligated to chastize rapists because most rapists are white men?

the same argument is made with black crime. i should be outraged because black men are perpetrating crimes...

i would be outraged as a citizen. not because im black/brown. or a man. or anything.

HISPANICS ARE CITIZENS LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

AND you actually generalized right now by ASSuming that most hispanics are ok with all these illegals.

whos defending them by the way? that just might be another generalization...


Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Now look, "One"....sometimes you make appropriate comments...this time? Bad analogy. Of course 'white men' do not root through the neighborhood, "outing" the rapists and child molesters who are white. However, there are VERY FEW of these malefactors in any community, and when they ARE caught...by the police...most 'White Men' do NOT defend them; do NOT plead for 'understanding' or 'acceptance' of these bad guys...and there is really no such thing as a "pro-rapist"...or a "pro-child-molester"...EVEN among white men.

Of course, illegal immigration is a FAR different offense than rape or pedophilia. On the other hand, illegal immigration occurs in fairly large numbers, and it DOES have plenty of people (of MANY ethnicities) defending it, rationalizing it, and trying to make it sound 'acceptable'.

All-in-all, your comparison was NOT a particularly valid one. You're capable of much better.
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Old 07-27-2009, 07:33 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 4,157,890 times
Reputation: 1274
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'd like to hear that, too...."what", exactly? Be specific, please.....
Why, I've no idea! That was why I thought perhaps someone a bit more 'in the know' than myself could perhaps enlighten me. You see, taking down the US flag, which perhaps more than anything symbolizes the US, and replacing it with the Mexican flag or flying it underneath the Mexican flag tells me that the parties involved do not hold the US in particularly high esteem. What is the issue? Our failure to grant them the amnesty they seem to believe they are entitled to? We stole their land? Our failure to buckle under and accede to their every demand? Our expectation that they abide by our rules and laws just like everybody else? Furthermore, if they hold such a low opinion of us, what are the illegals doing here?
If they choose to desecrate our flag, desecrate out country and insult Americans then I am not interested in picking up the tab for the birth of their anchor babies, the education of their other kids who are in the US illegally or anything else for that matter.
Maya Angelou once said that when someone shows you who they are, believe them. The illegal aliens showed me what they are a number of years ago and I believe them completely.

Last edited by andreabeth; 07-27-2009 at 08:25 PM..
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Old 07-27-2009, 07:34 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,405 posts, read 7,981,155 times
Reputation: 2175
i dont know, i wasnt there.

but good job in actually avoiding my post and comments.

since you do not address what i say, there is not need to comment further...

EDIT : wait are you trying to justify this womans actions miles and miles away based on what happened 3 years ago? or what some high schoolers did?

Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Who took down the American flag and raised the Mexican flag over the US Post Office in Maywood, CA, the one?



Who hoisted the Mexican flag with the US flag upside down underneath it up the flagpole? And why? This is a high school, paid for by US tax dollars.



And who are these people who appear to be quite pleased by this?



And these exemplary individuals?


*
*
*

Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining. You see, the more 'in your face' the behavior of the illegals and their enablers becomes, the easier that makes things for me. In the final analysis, they are the best weapon that we have. Keep it up.
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Old 07-27-2009, 07:44 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 4,157,890 times
Reputation: 1274
Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
i dont know, i wasnt there.

but good job in actually avoiding my post and comments.

since you do not address what i say, there is not need to comment further...

EDIT : wait are you trying to justify this womans actions miles and miles away based on what happened 3 years ago? or what some high schoolers did?
So there is no reason you can think of as to why this woman felt compelled to put up this sign? She could just as easily put up a sign saying 'Keep out Icelanders' or 'No Swiss allowed' or 'People from Singapore go away!', right?
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Old 07-27-2009, 08:06 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,405 posts, read 7,981,155 times
Reputation: 2175
so that is justification? for racism and prejudice...

wow
wow
wow
wow

Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
So there is no reason you can think of as to why this woman felt compelled to put up this sign? She could just as easily put up a sign saying 'Keep out Icelanders' or 'No Swiss allowed' or 'People from Singapore go away!', right?
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Old 07-27-2009, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Democratic Peoples Republic of Redneckistan
11,102 posts, read 8,198,183 times
Reputation: 3820
Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
yes, but the sign does not single out illegals. it ignorantly singles out hispanics.

am i moving too fast for you?
YOU don't have that ability.
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Old 07-27-2009, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,307 posts, read 11,509,408 times
Reputation: 6435
Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
so that is justification? for racism and prejudice...

wow
wow
wow
wow
Living in a free society which includes freedom of speech the woman exercised her first amendment rights. Distastefully to be sure. That said how is she different than the thousands of illegals who do the same thing? Anti-american slogans and signs. Accusations against this country. The country that they entered without permission. So she is a racist. Better a racist than a theif and a sneak. A liar and a cheat. I can deal with racists because most of them are up front with what they are. The same can not be said about most illegals. All of whom are liars, cheats and thieves. In short criminals.
I find the womans choice of outlet disturbing and more than a bit unfair to the millions of honest hispanic citizens in this country. At the same time we don't see the hispanic community as a whole condemning the actions of the 16 million plus hispanic illegals who are putting them in this spot light.
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