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View Poll Results: is opposing illegal immigration but supporting legal immigration anti-immigrant?
no 67 74.44%
yes 23 25.56%
Voters: 90. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-28-2013, 11:08 AM
 
Location: South Portland, ME
874 posts, read 969,593 times
Reputation: 868

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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddy5 View Post
Your title asks if I support legal and/or illegal immigration. I support my family,
I don't want to support any other families. The purpose of legal immigration is
to allow people who can make our country better, not be a financial burden, or
legal problem.

We do not have infinite resources, money, or land. We are a country of laws,
if you can't obey our laws, stay away.
I didn't create this thread.

"I don't want to support any other families" - so why do you support the welfare system that is currently in place then (and is the only reason for immigration restrictions in the first place)?
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Old 08-28-2013, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Kansas
19,189 posts, read 14,091,698 times
Reputation: 18141
Quote:
Originally Posted by sobejano View Post
is it possible for someone to support legal immigration but be opposed to illegal immigration?

i've been told that if you don't like illegal immigrants, you're anti-immigrant and racist and xenophobic and everything bad.

is that true?

does anti-illegal immigration = anti-immigration?

explain...
No it is not true. The reason they do this is that there is an agenda on the illegal immigration to make those criminals legal citizens of the US. It is just a ploy. I don't think very many people oppose legal immigration at all. They want people to feel guilty so they use those words and it is the standard. Most legal immigrates feel the same way as American citizens in that they did it the right way and expect them to do the same.
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Old 08-28-2013, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,015,365 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoulesMSU View Post
..."I don't want to support any other families" - so why do you support the welfare system that is currently in place then (and is the only reason for immigration restrictions in the first place)?
"Immigration restrictions" (whatever that means) are not necessarily in place to inhibit welfare use. Most means-tested benefits are off-limits to immigrants, until they have specifically been in a Legal Permanent Resident status for five years or more, paid into the Social Security system more than forty work quarters (10 years working), or naturalized to U.S. citizenship. SNAP benefits (food stamps) are available to children without those requirements, but each child must be legally present to qualify.

As we are bound to hear suggested, a sponsor failing to meet their requirements does not waive any qualifications to receive those services (it still is five years as an LPR, or forty work quarters for the immigrant themselves to qualify)...
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Old 08-28-2013, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,015,365 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnywhereElse View Post
No it is not true. The reason they do this is that there is an agenda on the illegal immigration to make those criminals legal citizens of the US. It is just a ploy...
The only path to naturalize to U.S. citizenship is through legal residency. Illegal aliens cannot be "made" into U.S. citizens. They would have to be Legal Permanent Residents first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnywhereElse View Post
...I don't think very many people oppose legal immigration at all. They want people to feel guilty so they use those words and it is the standard. Most legal immigrates feel the same way as American citizens in that they did it the right way and expect them to do the same.
Review this forum to see a majority opposing legal immigration based on ethnicity, nationality, and/or religion (a poll on the parent section of "Politics and Other Controversies" has a majority responding to end legal immigration for Muslims to the United States). It's nothing new. Joseph Keppler (whom died in 1894) drew a cartoon called "Looking BacK" where immigrants already here didn't like the newcomers:

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Old 08-28-2013, 02:47 PM
 
31,698 posts, read 14,614,583 times
Reputation: 8448
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnywhereElse View Post
No it is not true. The reason they do this is that there is an agenda on the illegal immigration to make those criminals legal citizens of the US. It is just a ploy. I don't think very many people oppose legal immigration at all. They want people to feel guilty so they use those words and it is the standard. Most legal immigrates feel the same way as American citizens in that they did it the right way and expect them to do the same.
You're exactly right. Some even think you are anti-immigrant or anti-Hispanic/Mexican if you dare advocate for more diversity in our legal immigration numbers so that it is fair and equal to all nationalities/ethnic groups.
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:53 AM
 
Location: South Portland, ME
874 posts, read 969,593 times
Reputation: 868
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
"Immigration restrictions" (whatever that means) are not necessarily in place to inhibit welfare use. Most means-tested benefits are off-limits to immigrants, until they have specifically been in a Legal Permanent Resident status for five years or more, paid into the Social Security system more than forty work quarters (10 years working), or naturalized to U.S. citizenship. SNAP benefits (food stamps) are available to children without those requirements, but each child must be legally present to qualify.

As we are bound to hear suggested, a sponsor failing to meet their requirements does not waive any qualifications to receive those services (it still is five years as an LPR, or forty work quarters for the immigrant themselves to qualify)...
"Immigration restrictions" means anything which inhibits immigration, such as "jumping through hoops" and various ridiculous rules such as (as you said) many year "wait periods" and whatnot in order to simply move somewhere (aka "legal immigration").

And, if that is the case (that benefits are not available for anyone until much later), then how come the vast majority of people who are opposed to unlimited immigration cite that 'we' won't be able to afford having all these people come here? What else is there to afford other than welfare benefits?

In such a case, isn't the solution then to reduce welfare benefits so that they don't cost as much, RATHER THAN trying to keep people from using said benefits?


---------------------------

//unrelated to quoted post


Also I notice that people who say "there is a legal way to do it" don't say a peep about how ridiculously (and unnecessarily) hard such a way is, and admit that the ONLY reason people come here "illegally" is BECAUSE the legal way is so unfeasible.

Let's say that you NEED bread for your family, but the ONLY (legal) way to get it is to fill out dozens of forms of paperwork, stand in line for several hours, sit on hold over the phone for several more hours, take some tests and have some interviews, and then still possibly have your request denied. What would you do? Continually jump through all these hoops hoping that you might actually get a piece of bread one day? Or would you just sneak into the store and take a loaf since the only "legal" way of getting it is completely ridiculous? You would gladly pay for it, but that's too easy, apparently, so it's not an option.

This is the same as immigration. People WOULD come here legally, if it wasn't such a bureaucratic time consuming mess to do so. And since it is, I don't fault them at all, I fault the system that people like you have created because you have this perverse notion of "citizenship" being only for people who are "worthy"... unless of course they are unworthy, but happened to be born here - which just destroys your argument because how can you claim "only the worthy" may live here when there are so many who ALREADY live here that DON'T meet your definition? lol

Last edited by JoulesMSU; 08-29-2013 at 08:04 AM..
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Old 08-29-2013, 06:24 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,752,909 times
Reputation: 22163
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoulesMSU View Post
"Immigration restrictions" means anything which inhibits immigration, such as "jumping through hoops" and various ridiculous rules such as (as you said) many year "wait periods" and whatnot in order to simply move somewhere (aka "legal immigration").

And, if that is the case (that benefits are not available for anyone until much later), then how come the vast majority of people who are opposed to unlimited immigration cite that 'we' won't be able to afford having all these people come here? What else is there to afford other than welfare benefits?

In such a case, isn't the solution then to reduce welfare benefits so that they don't cost as much, RATHER THAN trying to keep people from using said benefits?


---------------------------

//unrelated to quoted post


Also I notice that people who say "there is a legal way to do it" don't say a peep about how ridiculously (and unnecessarily) hard such a way is, and admit that the ONLY reason people come here "illegally" is BECAUSE the legal way is so unfeasible.

Let's say that you NEED bread for your family, but the ONLY (legal) way to get it is to fill out dozens of forms of paperwork, stand in line for several hours, sit on hold over the phone for several more hours, take some tests and have some interviews, and then still possibly have your request denied. What would you do? Continually jump through all these hoops hoping that you might actually get a piece of bread one day? Or would you just sneak into the store and take a loaf since the only "legal" way of getting it is completely ridiculous? You would gladly pay for it, but that's too easy, apparently, so it's not an option.

This is the same as immigration. People WOULD come here legally, if it wasn't such a bureaucratic time consuming mess to do so. And since it is, I don't fault them at all, I fault the system that people like you have created because you have this perverse notion of "citizenship" being only for people who are "worthy"... unless of course they are unworthy, but happened to be born here - which just destroys your argument because how can you claim "only the worthy" may live here when there are so many who ALREADY live here that DON'T meet your definition? lol
The USA takes in BY FAR more legal immigrants than any other nation on this planet and we have FAR too many immigrants ending up on government handouts of one kind or another. Sure it might take them a short 5 years to get in on the handouts but why should anyone come here and ever get on food stamps, Medicaid and so on?
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Old 09-03-2013, 11:43 AM
 
Location: South Portland, ME
874 posts, read 969,593 times
Reputation: 868
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
The USA takes in BY FAR more legal immigrants than any other nation on this planet and we have FAR too many immigrants ending up on government handouts of one kind or another. Sure it might take them a short 5 years to get in on the handouts but why should anyone come here and ever get on food stamps, Medicaid and so on?
A "short 5 years" - lol, sorry but 5 years is a long time. What are these people doing to take care of themselves for 5 years then?

And if they are able to take care of themselves for 5 years without any handouts, and then are getting handouts after that - doesn't that indicate to you that the standard for giving out handouts is a bit too high? That we are apparently giving out handouts to people who don't actually need them?

Seems like you just found the problem with the system - and it's not the immigrants.
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,015,365 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoulesMSU View Post
A "short 5 years" - lol, sorry but 5 years is a long time. What are these people doing to take care of themselves for 5 years then?

And if they are able to take care of themselves for 5 years without any handouts, and then are getting handouts after that - doesn't that indicate to you that the standard for giving out handouts is a bit too high? That we are apparently giving out handouts to people who don't actually need them?

Seems like you just found the problem with the system - and it's not the immigrants.
Keep in mind that when "malamute" says "...and we have FAR too many immigrants ending up on government handouts of one kind or another" he isn't sourcing any data (which is rather typical for him) as support for the statement. Data from FAIR and CIS is unreliable, as it doesn't determine when those "foreign-born" immigrants naturalize as U.S. citizens. In fact FAIR/CIS separates data to the second generation from only Hispanic immigrants (my 22-month old granddaughter may eventually have children, that they would count as deriving from a Hispanic immigrant), and not from other immigrant ethnicities.
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Old 09-03-2013, 07:01 PM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,301,713 times
Reputation: 5895
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoulesMSU View Post
A "short 5 years" - lol, sorry but 5 years is a long time. What are these people doing to take care of themselves for 5 years then?

And if they are able to take care of themselves for 5 years without any handouts, and then are getting handouts after that - doesn't that indicate to you that the standard for giving out handouts is a bit too high? That we are apparently giving out handouts to people who don't actually need them?

Seems like you just found the problem with the system - and it's not the immigrants.
Those are the rules here in the US. Either follow them or try to change them. If the rules don't get changed, it is what it is.
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