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Old 08-14-2009, 01:25 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
In other words, we should simply continue to allow Mexican drug cartels to have unfettered access to this country, and to propagate their heinous murders. We should also continue to allow any terrorist organization, any illegal alien fleeing prosecution for rape and murder in their countries of origin to enter this country. We have an obligation, and it is not cost prohibitive to protect the borders of other countries, but not our own. Do I understand you correctly?
That's pretty much what I get out of this. We can topple a foreign dictator and do 'social engineering' in that distant country for YEARS afterward....we can 'lock down' borders around the world, and if neccessary, remain behind for DECADES to insure compliance; we can put a man on the moon, are CLOSE to curing the common cold; have conquered typhoid fever, malaria, and polio; brought electricity and TV to remote farms, built the greatest single 'structure' in the history of mankind (The US Interstate Highway system), Won TWO world wars and then 'rebuilt' the economies of those whom we 'beat'....and have sent incalcuable aid, goods and materials to places too numerous to list, when these places needed help....but we CAN NOT supervise the flow of people back-and-forth across our own border....and apparently, even if we COULD, we'd never be able to bear the cost...so we'd better just 'forget it', since anything of this nature would be "impossible".

Somehow, I'm missing something here....or maybe I'm just not seeing the 'big picture'.
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Old 08-14-2009, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
That is an international dispute that directly affects our national safety. Contrary to the fear instilled people on this board, illegal immigration does not affect national security as much as you think.

So what, we magically grow troops? They magically just appear on the border? We magically solve our international crises? It's complicated.

Laws that hammer employers will not force self deportation. Coupled with other things (encouraging a guest worker program) this may help create a BETTER legal method to enter into our nation.
Try again:

Our employer sanctions law is helping to put the fear of God into illegal aliens right here in the Phx area---------a good 30% of those criminal losers have left the state since 2007. Fail E Verify----------buh-bye!

And; saying the real reason those criminals left is due to the economy I do not accept---------otherwise, why are so many of 'em heading to California, Texas, etc. instead of hightailing it back SoB and points further south.
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Old 08-16-2009, 01:03 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,327 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
In other words, we should simply continue to allow Mexican drug cartels to have unfettered access to this country, and to propagate their heinous murders. We should also continue to allow any terrorist organization, any illegal alien fleeing prosecution for rape and murder in their countries of origin to enter this country. We have an obligation, and it is not cost prohibitive to protect the borders of other countries, but not our own. Do I understand you correctly?
Umm...first off, we KNOW the war on drugs is an udder disgrace on this nation. Mexican drug cartels WILL always come in if their is a demand. This means we should rethink our views on drug enforcement.

Secondly, your idea that we will "continue to allow any terrorist organization" is simply not true. Can a terrorist attack occur? Yes. It happened on 9/11. However, at what point do we say that we will not allow the threat of terrorism to shape every facet of our nation. We know the VAST majority of those entering illegally are NOT criminals of any violent crimes. The majority are those seeking advancement economically...that's it.

So if I'm to understand you correctly you want to push two VERY VERY unsuccessful wars (war on drugs and war on terror) more so into the forefront.

We should not be griped in irrational fear.
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Old 08-16-2009, 01:05 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,327 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Try again:

Our employer sanctions law is helping to put the fear of God into illegal aliens right here in the Phx area---------a good 30% of those criminal losers have left the state since 2007. Fail E Verify----------buh-bye!

And; saying the real reason those criminals left is due to the economy I do not accept---------otherwise, why are so many of 'em heading to California, Texas, etc. instead of hightailing it back SoB and points further south.
California had less illegal immigrants. It's economic based. Tide of illegal immigration reverses - 11/22/08 - San Francisco News - abc7news.com
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Old 08-16-2009, 01:12 PM
 
716 posts, read 970,660 times
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This is a good point. Democrats, being generally pro-labor and pro-working class, should be strongly against illegal immigration. Free-market conservatives should welcome the cheap labor.
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Old 08-16-2009, 01:16 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,327 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
That's pretty much what I get out of this. We can topple a foreign dictator and do 'social engineering' in that distant country for YEARS afterward....we can 'lock down' borders around the world, and if neccessary, remain behind for DECADES to insure compliance; we can put a man on the moon, are CLOSE to curing the common cold; have conquered typhoid fever, malaria, and polio; brought electricity and TV to remote farms, built the greatest single 'structure' in the history of mankind (The US Interstate Highway system), Won TWO world wars and then 'rebuilt' the economies of those whom we 'beat'....and have sent incalcuable aid, goods and materials to places too numerous to list, when these places needed help....but we CAN NOT supervise the flow of people back-and-forth across our own border....and apparently, even if we COULD, we'd never be able to bear the cost...so we'd better just 'forget it', since anything of this nature would be "impossible".

Somehow, I'm missing something here....or maybe I'm just not seeing the 'big picture'.
Because social engineering led us to a major mess (the Middle East debacle), we aren't even close to curing the common cold (viruses are VERY quick at evolving...if anything due to the relience on vaccinations we might be setting ourselves up disaster), aid is usually in the form of VERY VERY restrictive usage and comes at nearly destroying economies (hence why South America is very weary of the IMF, World Bank, aid from more industrialized nations...Argentina and Jamaica are great examples). We did go to space, we did win two world wars (the second one inevitably causing the current war on terror, many historians feel that the War on Terror is an offshoot of the Cold War, which was a direct result from WWII).

I guess what I'm saying is that we've learned lessons from these "achievements" . That these "achievements" have caused many problems. With that said, we should focus on a way that instead of imposing and forcing, cooperates and coordinates. Every action has a reaction
(WWII---> Cold War---> War on Terror) (US Highway--->Car boom--->Climate Change). Not all of it's bad, since we are still working out the kinks and problems of the past. As long as we learn histories lessons...we should be fine.
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Old 08-16-2009, 03:46 PM
 
1,150 posts, read 990,683 times
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<<illegal immigration does not affect national security as much as you think.>>

According to the Border Patrol, several thousand people from Lybia, Somalia, Syria, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, and other such delightful countries, have been caught crossing the southern border. One ploy some of them use, especially Middle Easterners, is to learn Spanish, study the culture of a Hispanic country, then pass themselves off as citizens of that country. How many of these may be terrorists? No one knows, but to me it seems a bit foolish to take that chance.
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Old 08-16-2009, 04:03 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,798 posts, read 30,025,534 times
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At the height of Illegal Immigration it was thought 1500 Illegals made it across the border each day. 1500 is almost like adding a small town to the US EACH DAY. That's ridiculous. Our social service network cannot sustain that many extra poor being added each day.
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Old 08-16-2009, 04:08 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayarcy View Post
<<illegal immigration does not affect national security as much as you think.>>

According to the Border Patrol, several thousand people from Lybia, Somalia, Syria, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, and other such delightful countries, have been caught crossing the southern border. One ploy some of them use, especially Middle Easterners, is to learn Spanish, study the culture of a Hispanic country, then pass themselves off as citizens of that country. How many of these may be terrorists? No one knows, but to me it seems a bit foolish to take that chance.
True. In the months shortly after 9-11, Mexican authorities uncovered a group of 40 or so indviduals from the Middle East..I believe most were from Yemen (if memory serves). ALL had entered Mexico illegally, and made their way to the US border where they were discovered in a cheap hotel in Nogales, Son.,....a hotel usually patronized by prospective 'border jumpers' just prior to entering the US.

Perhaps it was the large SIZE of the group that got the attention of the locals (Remember, Mexico was VERY upset with the border situation that resulted from 9-11). In any event, they were arrested by the 'Feds" and transferred to Mexico City for prosecution..(and probably deportation).

Any terrorist with 'half a brain' would be a FOOL not to consider crossing into the US via one of our land borders. A group of 40 is PROBABLY not a smart move...but what about a group of 2...6..or 8?
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Old 08-16-2009, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,761,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatwoods View Post
This is a good point. Democrats, being generally pro-labor and pro-working class, should be strongly against illegal immigration. Free-market conservatives should welcome the cheap labor.
The reason is because illegal immigration has become a social issue rather than an economic one.
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