The Dark Side of Diversity (illegal immigrants, law, bias, FBI)

[JD.]

Billy4: You ask how Iraqi's are going to get here? They are already coming across the Mexican border. I posted an article a week or two ago about the FBI acknowledging that Mexican human smugglers have smuggled thousands of Iraqi's into the US in the past couple years alone.

happyappy: Don't pin the NAU on conservatives. If I remember correctly the 'neo-cons' fought furiously against President Bush's amnesty agenda last month and were outraged at the idea of a cross continental highway through Mex.-U.S.-Canada. The only people for the creation of the NAU are globalists. Not moonbat liberals and not neo-cons. The issue is divisive enough, let's not add fuel to the fire.

[bily4]

Originally Posted by JD.

Billy4: You ask how Iraqi's are going to get here? They are already coming across the Mexican border. I posted an article a week or two ago about the FBI acknowledging that Mexican human smugglers have smuggled thousands of Iraqi's into the US in the past couple years alone.

happyappy: Don't pin the NAU on conservatives. If I remember correctly the 'neo-cons' fought furiously against President Bush's amnesty agenda last month and were outraged at the idea of a cross continental highway through Mex.-U.S.-Canada. The only people for the creation of the NAU are globalists. Not moonbat liberals and not neo-cons. The issue is divisive enough, let's not add fuel to the fire.

JD, that was a blog. It was just a piece of raw intelligence that are very often proven false. If it was true I would assume it would have been discussed on the major news channels and newspapers. It is also important not to get caught up in the hysteria of the blogging world and fuel fires that way.


Bill Elwell, a spokesman for the Albuquerque FBI office, confirmed Wednesday that there is an intelligence report that does mention an alleged smuggling ring, but says that the information hasn't warranted an investigation.

"That information is unsubstantiated raw intelligence," Elwell said. "We don't have an investigation going on about Iraqi smuggling in the Belen area or in New Mexico. We get information like this from various sources, some unreliable, but we don't have substantial information."

Elwell explained that as a result of the events of 9/11, the FBI and a variety of other intelligence agencies share information, including raw intelligence and unsubstantiated information. He said that the particular intelligence report that was obtained by ABC News was actually supposed to be distributed for law enforcement purposes only.

"Raw intelligence could be from one source — it could be something that was just overheard," Elwell said. "It's not that we don't want people to know what's going on, but because it's (the information) not substantiated, we don't want the wrong or unsubstantiated information to get out."

Belen Police Chief Mike Chavez said no one had contacted him, including the FBI, regarding an alleged human smuggling ring bringing Iraqis into the city. He also said that there has not been any activity in Belen to make him believe that people have been smuggled in via the railroad.

"No one from the FBI has shared this information with me, and they have not briefed me that this was happening," Chavez said. "We haven't run across anything that would lead us to think that human smuggling is occurring here."

Joe Foust, BNSF regional director of public affairs, also said that there haven't been any investigations in the Belen area or in New Mexico regarding the allegations in freight transportation.

The News-Bulletin: FBI, local officials downplay report that Iraqis smuggled into U.S. via rail in Belen

[happyappy]

Originally Posted by JD.

(snip)

happyappy: Don't pin the NAU on conservatives. If I remember correctly the 'neo-cons' fought furiously against President Bush's amnesty agenda last month and were outraged at the idea of a cross continental highway through Mex.-U.S.-Canada. The only people for the creation of the NAU are globalists. Not moonbat liberals and not neo-cons. The issue is divisive enough, let's not add fuel to the fire.

I did not "pin the NAU on conservatives" if you'll notice; I pinned it on neo-conservatives. And those conservatives who are against the NAU and the NAFTA Superhighway are NOT neo-conservative loyalists. Neo-cons are globalists. Don't throw fuel on the fire.

[macmeal]

Originally Posted by bily4

macmeal,
.

How are millions of Chechnyans and Iraqis going to get here? Have you read how hard it is to immigrate into our country today by some of the people from England and Canada trying to get in here? This does not hold up because you present an inplausible scenario.

You pose that - Culture includes ethics, the duties of a citizen, the intricacies of family relationships, the relative importance of obeying the law, even something so mundane as the treatment of animals.

People that come to immigrate here today and manage to be allowed in do so precisely because of the opportunities our country presents for them and their families. The people that uphold our laws are composed of all the cultures that make up our society. In England the Muslim radicals that were planning bombs got turned in by their own Muslim communities, the other vast majority that just want to progress for themselves and their families. Michael Vick (allegedly) killed dogs for sport -he is a U.S. citizen. Ever see to catch a Predator? There are pedophiles of all stripes and colors caught on that show. Plenty of wife beaters, gamblers, prostitute purchasers, embezzlers that are US citizens also. Or should I say whites? Whatever... lots of bad apples anywhere you go. Our law enforcers will deal with them as appropriate. Point being that you seem to envision a scenario where we are all overrun by some as yet unnamed foreign culture that by force takes over the country from within. I suggest this is not remotely possible, even with the help of the ACLU.

Perhaps, Bily4, I will simply have to continue to say "Tomayto" while you say "Tomahto"--I really don't know how to state my case any more plainly than I have. As I have said before, I mistrust "multiculturalism" because I am not aware of its existing for more that a few decades; and where it does exist, it only does so through authoritarian government oversight, (ie. Singapore)or through considerable societal upheavals (Western Europe). Also there is a long list of places where multiculturalism HAS been tried, and failed, with tragic, deadly consequences. In the end, perhaps I simply trust people's "native intelligence" more than you do. It seems to me that if multiculturalism was inherently "good"- like electric lights, computers, or modern medicine---that people would eagerly embrace it. The fact that it must be force-fed to a large part of the population--and is not even being considered in most countries--brings serious doubts, I think, about its advisability. Quite frankly, I don't see the situation in Western Europe as one to be envied. I seem to be hearing of serious disagreements there, and quite a massive abandonment of personal liberties, all in the name of "keeping the peace"--that does not sound like an appealing future to me.

You seem to be saying, "don't worry about the Chechnyans or Iraqis, because thay can't get here anyway". Somehow I don't find much comfort in that--I'm sure that sooner or later, they'll "get here", and insist upon being accepted. And when they do, they'll be encouraged to celebrate their own culture--shucks, we won't mind..

I can't think of a more docile, soft-spoken, non-offensive, mild-mannered country than Canada. And yet there's considerable ill-feeling up there between its two "official" cultures- some of it silly and childish, occasionally becoming more serious. Suffice it to say that the two groups sometimes go out of their way to be "nasty" to one another. And these, mind you, are two groups, and two languages, that have shared the same huge piece of real estate for THREE HUNDRED YEARS. And the cultures are not all that dissimilar...yet look at the rancor caused just by having two languages sharing "official" status. And we have many times their population, in considerably less space.

As far as the lamentable condition of the illegals goes, one cannot help but feel much empathy for them. But we can't be held accountable for the misdeeds of the PRI and other power-brokers in Mexico. Somehow the responsibility must go beyond the selfish gringos.
Once again, a HUGE part of the problem is simply that we no longer insist on assimilation, and that part is entirely our fault. We don't do it, because that would be "racist"..Given the choice, anyone is going to take the easy way out. The illegals aren't assimilating because they know we don't require them to. Some are, of course, but only at their own convenience, not because they "should". Indeed, many activist groups speak strongly AGAINST assimilation.

As for your "Vick" the dog-killer argument, its certainly true that we have our share of horrible and undesirable people here...and If I could, I'd trade the whole lot of them for some of the nice immigrants I've known over the years, in a heartbeat. But that is not possible, and that argument sounds like saying, "You must take in and support my teen-age kids; after all, they're better than your OWN rotten, disrespectful teenagers". While that may be perfectly true, acknowledging the shortcomings of MY teenagers doesn't obligate me to take care of yours. If I could, I'd ship Vick off to Mexico and exchange him for a whole FAMILY of deserving Mexicans--but that is just not going to happen in the "real world".

In summary, once again, I can only say, you've got your view on this, and I've got mine. I will say that certain non-whites very close to me (about as close as we could be, if you get my drift), are far less intimidated by white racists than they are by open multiculturalism. We actually get an occasional laugh at the antics of white racists we sometimes encounter. They're really quite fun to watch. (I'm the first to admit it might be different in Alabama; but I don't live there)--at any rate, I'll close by summing up with the same question I asked in my letter of 7/23 -- are you absolutely certain that your well-founded distaste for the "white folks" (which I understand you to mean is a euphemism for 'racists')--isn't causing you to overreact and to reach out blindly to embrace a whole NEW group of non-white racists? Maybe it's not a fair question, and if so, I apologize, because I value your input--If you weren't intelligent, I'd have tired of you long ago..still, I worry that your good intentions might be causing a reluctance to face certain unpleasant, but very real, dangers.
I do enjoy your posts.....

[macmeal]

Originally Posted by MexicanGuy

This is very true, MacMeal. Besides, Latin American culture isn’t all that different from American culture; in fact, it’s very similar to other Latin cultures, like those of Spain or Italy, to name a few, and I see Italian-Americans are doing just fine in the U.S.

Thanks for your kindness, MGuy---you are quite correct about Italians--you could have included Irish, Germans, etc. But don't forget that these earlier arrivals were "hazed"--the Italians were teased, mocked, tormented, and accused of having Mafia connections. Some even "anglicized" their names (!) In the process, they lost much of their old-world culture and were dragged, kicking and screaming, into the "American" culture, where today they have proudly taken their place "at the table". In essence, they are now "anglos" in most respects. Big difference between our treatment of immigrants then, as opposed to today, when assimilation is actually discouraged in many cases.
Enjoyed your posts....

[Kele]

Originally Posted by happyappy

In America it’s the far right (neoconservatives) that would be “post-national elites [who] want to break down existing nation states through mass immigration in favor of a [North American Union] superstate with themselves on top, ruling disjointed nations [such as Canada, America, and Mexico] as an authoritarian oligarchy.” And they have designs that go much further and farther than North America.

I wish you hadn’t mentioned David Horowitz, in my opinion the only slightly less caustic version of Ann Coulter. What a team of “liberal” haters. Neither of them bothers to clearly specify a differentiation between far-lefters and moderates. They don’t bother to do it because they are far-righters and they don’t want anyone to notice that they are—different, in my opinion.

The immigration issue is political in the minds of the extremists of both the left and right. In the middle are those of us who understand the damage that will be done to America by massive immigration, legal or illegal, and it goes FAR beyond any political issue.

Diversity good. Multi-culturalism bad. Overpopulation deadly.

I'm not a big fan of David Horowitz either, but every now and then I can find common ground with those I disagree with the vast majority of the time.

What he has to say about anti-Americanism and the death of American culture rings true in the debate about whether or not multiculturalism is a good thing for [insert your country of choice here].

If the U.S. does not learn a lesson from the deterioration of Europe, we are doomed to suffer its fate.

[happyappy]

Originally Posted by Kele

I'm not a big fan of David Horowitz either, but every now and then I can find common ground with those I disagree with the vast majority of the time.

What he has to say about anti-Americanism and the death of American culture rings true in the debate about whether or not multiculturalism is a good thing for [insert your country of choice here].

If the U.S. does not learn a lesson from the deterioration of Europe, we are doomed to suffer its fate.

You’re right. I subscribe to his e-mail updates and I read some of his stuff. He does occasionally have some great words of wisdom. But then he was at one time a liberal (whatever meaning that has in this particular discussion; the meaning seems to change from one to another). I’m kidding, of course; conservatives (whatever meaning that has in this particular discussion; the meaning seems to change from one to another) have critical thinkers as well.

Yes, studying the past to prevent repetition of its disasters should become prominent study for all people of all ages at all educational levels. I hope my kids, when they get to be my age, aren’t studying what is now our present to prevent repetition of what will then be our past; a disastrous past caused in large part by policies of NOT limiting immigration and enforcing immigration laws.

We will not be able to recover from the tragedy that will befall us without first surviving unimaginable misery.

[bily4]

macmeal yes we do go in cirecles don't we?

You know I was speaking to a guy in England just last week and asked him about the ethnic tensions over there and he told me they are way overblown. The media loves a good story, and any incident becomes blown way out of proportion. I will admit there is a more serious problem in France, but their marginalization of the Muslims there and keeping them outside of legitimate society does go a long way towards the ill feelings created.

Sure the Mexican elite should share in some of the blame for the issues of illegals in our country today, I don't ever recall saying otherwise. I think most Mexicans would agree with that as well. As I posted, change is happening there, but it will not happen overnight.

I dunno, maybe it is just because I have done so much international travelling and my living in Mexico also gives me a different perspective on these issues. I just don't feel threatened by the fact we are becoming more multicultural. I agree certainly that there are racists in all flavors, no argument there. I just think the fears of those who think a tidal wave of third world savagery is going to wash over us are just way overblown. People that immigrate here are proud and eager to call themselves "American", first and foremost, or they would stay wherever they came from in the first place.

You know part of my job is to negotiate deals. I find that collaborating and understanding the position and perspective of the person across the table is what leads to a successful negotiation. Antagonizing and looking for a total victory, black-white solution, never works. That principle applies in these matters of race and culture as well, in my mind. I don't consider myself naive. I find rather the people that have lived sheltered here in the U.S. their entire lives that are creating these scares are the ones a bit out of touch with reality.

[macmeal]

Originally Posted by JD.

Billy4: You ask how Iraqi's are going to get here? They are already coming across the Mexican border. I posted an article a week or two ago about the FBI acknowledging that Mexican human smugglers have smuggled thousands of Iraqi's into the US in the past couple years alone.

.

JD, still not clear on this---as a frequent rail rider, I can assure you there's no passenger rail service in Belen. It is a busy point on the line between Southern California and the Midwest---but any "rail passengers" in Belen would have to travel by freight train...hardly a simple task with all of our yard security these days. El Paso does have rail passenger service (New Orleans-Los Angeles) but seems to me that it, too, would be extraordinarily vulnerable to "security" oversight. They have "drug dogs", etc., there, and go over the trains quite thoroughly.
Furthermore, you can't "cross the Rio Grande from Mexico into New Mexico". Crossing the Rio Grande at the northernmost point possible in Mexico would put you directly into El Paso, at the old smelter. Once on the "other side", you'd be several miles from New Mexico.
I'm certainly not discounting the possibility of this story, and I've often wondered just why any self-respecting terrorist wouldn't have done this years ago. But the story presented here does have some inconsistencies......

[macmeal]

Originally Posted by bily4

macmeal yes we do go in cirecles don't we?

You know I was speaking to a guy in England just last week and asked him about the ethnic tensions over there and he told me they are way overblown. The media loves a good story, and any incident becomes blown way out of proportion. I will admit there is a more serious problem in France, but their marginalization of the Muslims there and keeping them outside of legitimate society does go a long way towards the ill feelings created.

Sure the Mexican elite should share in some of the blame for the issues of illegals in our country today, I don't ever recall saying otherwise. I think most Mexicans would agree with that as well. As I posted, change is happening there, but it will not happen overnight.

I dunno, maybe it is just because I have done so much international travelling and my living in Mexico also gives me a different perspective on these issues. I just don't feel threatened by the fact we are becoming more multicultural. I agree certainly that there are racists in all flavors, no argument there. I just think the fears of those who think a tidal wave of third world savagery is going to wash over us are just way overblown. People that immigrate here are proud and eager to call themselves "American", first and foremost, or they would stay wherever they came from in the first place.

You know part of my job is to negotiate deals. I find that collaborating and understanding the position and perspective of the person across the table is what leads to a successful negotiation. Antagonizing and looking for a total victory, black-white solution, never works. That principle applies in these matters of race and culture as well, in my mind. I don't consider myself naive. I find rather the people that have lived sheltered here in the U.S. their entire lives that are creating these scares are the ones a bit out of touch with reality.

Points well taken, and, as I say, the situation on this forum I find to be more alarming than in my everyday life--perhaps it's a case of "forum frenzy"...I continue to value your input, and hope that your optimistic view indeed holds true---time. of course, will tell. The best to you, meanwhile---