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Old 11-11-2009, 07:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Thanks for your explanation.....

IF, as you say, "some cultures are very tribal in mentality"....and if, as you say, "this causes a division in a country".... does that then mean this is a GOOD thing, or a BAD thing, in terms of coming here? Is a "little division" OK, as long as it doesn't develop into a LOT of division? Can we tolerate a "little xenophobia"? How about a "moderate" amount of misogyny? Not trying to trip you up here...just asking.

Don't mean to 'grill' you personally...just trying to clarify a few points. Thanks for letting me pose these questions.
A group migrating to another country with a tribal mentality isn't good for the country they are migrating to. That doesn't mean that their culture is no good in general. It is part of their belief system that belongs in the homeland where they are the majority in rather than migrating to a different country because that means they will likely not assimilate to their new country. Ethocentricism will trump any nationalistic views that should be acquired. It is in direct contrast to "out of many, one".
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
A group migrating to another country with a tribal mentality isn't good for the country they are migrating to. That doesn't mean that their culture is no good in general. It is part of their belief system that belongs in the homeland where they are the majority in rather than migrating to a different country because that means they will likely not assimilate to their new country. Ethocentricism will trump any nationalistic views that should be acquired. It is in direct contrast to "out of many, one".
I like the term "tribal mentality". Harkens back to the days of social Darwinism, European colonialism, and the belief minorities were somehow inherently more stupid. I am assuming that you do not refer to actual tribes (since this based more on kinship, rather than ethnic or national pride).

The truth of the matter is that, there really is no such thing as a "tribal mentality". In groups and out groups are formed all the time. In fact, if you live with three people...there will almost always be an "in" group and an "out" group.

With respect to how this all ties back in, well, we see in the US a model that less like a "melting pot" and more like a "toss salad". All parts contribute to the whole, but the parts need not be homogenized. Many in the "in" group (whom you are a part of, a born citizen of the US) may percieve and create an "out" group (those that exhibit some percieved flaw, if you will). Thus, we enter into the realm of identity theory. The "out" groups will embrace the identity given to them and galvanize support. People become stereotypes to be within a group. Take an individual fraternity member, that person is not the stereotypical fratty guy. However, place that person within the group setting, and stereotypes emerge in order to establish group identity.

I know it's fairly complex, but the gist of it is that it's not something inherent to a specific culture. We all create groups and form identities, thus having a "tribal mentality".
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:30 PM
 
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The tribal mentality is precisely why we have been headed into a salad bowl society rather than a cohesive melting pot as our forefathers invisioned and away from "out of many, one". At the rate we are going our country will have no unique identity of it's own. We will be known as "the mutt country".
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
The tribal mentality is precisely why we have been headed into a salad bowl society rather than a cohesive melting pot as our forefathers invisioned and away from "out of many, one". At the rate we are going our country will have no unique identity of it's own. We will be known as "the mutt country".
Again tribal mentality is not a real thing. In group/ out group is a better description.

Also a melting pot never existed. The melting pot is more an idealized term in the early 20th century. This was further from the truth. Each group contributed to the "salad" that is American culture.

Our forefathers envisioned a nation based on land owning White males.

We've always been a "mutt country". However, the world is becoming like this in general. Africans eating Pho and shopping in mega malls. Asians listening to Kanye West in suburban housing tracts. The culture of consumption is now global.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
A group migrating to another country with a tribal mentality isn't good for the country they are migrating to. That doesn't mean that their culture is no good in general. It is part of their belief system that belongs in the homeland where they are the majority in rather than migrating to a different country because that means they will likely not assimilate to their new country. Ethocentricism will trump any nationalistic views that should be acquired. It is in direct contrast to "out of many, one".
Hmmmmm...OK, I THINK I'm getting it...

Thanks, again.
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Old 11-12-2009, 06:49 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
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Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Again tribal mentality is not a real thing. In group/ out group is a better description.

Also a melting pot never existed. The melting pot is more an idealized term in the early 20th century. This was further from the truth. Each group contributed to the "salad" that is American culture.

Our forefathers envisioned a nation based on land owning White males.

We've always been a "mutt country". However, the world is becoming like this in general. Africans eating Pho and shopping in mega malls. Asians listening to Kanye West in suburban housing tracts. The culture of consumption is now global.
China is still Chinese culturally, Ireland is still Irish culturally, Germany is still German culturally, Mexico is still Hispanic culturally even though they have immigrants living there and yet when the USA tries to retain it's native culture for some reason it is considered a negative thing and even racist by the ethnocentric, tribal minded whose native culture is not our basic and identifyng culture. Why is that? Is it because some minorities can't stand for a dominant white country to remain that way but in their own homelands the reverse is ok and in fact are adamant about retaining their native cultures as the dominant one? What hypocrites! What is happening to change our basic culture is directly through illegal immigation from mostly one ethnic group. It isn't a natural phenomenum.
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Old 11-12-2009, 09:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
China is still Chinese culturally, Ireland is still Irish culturally, Germany is still German culturally, Mexico is still Hispanic culturally even though they have immigrants living there and yet when the USA tries to retain it's native culture for some reason it is considered a negative thing and even racist by the ethnocentric, tribal minded whose native culture is not our basic and identifyng culture. Why is that? Is it because some minorities can't stand for a dominant white country to remain that way but in their own homelands the reverse is ok and in fact are adamant about retaining their native cultures as the dominant one? What hypocrites! What is happening to change our basic culture is directly through illegal immigation from mostly one ethnic group. It isn't a natural phenomenum.
China has different cultures within it. There is a huge distinction between the Haun, the Taiwanese, and the various other cultures within its borders. Ireland is homogenous. Mexico's immigrants have retained their culture. Germany's various immigrant groups have retained their culture. I have African friends in Switzerlan, they don't wear lederhosen. In fact, the mother owns a Congolese market.

That disproved your theory. The USA is one of the most diverse nations in the world. The "White dominant" culture was fragmented. Germans at one point were not "White". Then the "Irish". Now Arabs are not "White" (though they were for a period of time).

The US is unique in which it has a HUGE minority population. This defines the terms of culture. Thus, Whites borrow from minority populations and cultural norms change and are accomodated.

As you see, the US is a toss salad. People retain their identities while contributing to the "salad" of our nation. It always has been this way.
My ancestors from E. Germany brought their Kosher style of cooking (the deli). My other ancestors from Ireland brought a holiday with them (St. Patrick's Day).

The biggest thing that links all cultures in the US together is the post post modern culture of consumption defined by globalization and mass media.
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Old 11-12-2009, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Maryland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
China has different cultures within it. There is a huge distinction between the Haun, the Taiwanese, and the various other cultures within its borders. Ireland is homogenous. Mexico's immigrants have retained their culture. Germany's various immigrant groups have retained their culture. I have African friends in Switzerlan, they don't wear lederhosen. In fact, the mother owns a Congolese market.

That disproved your theory. The USA is one of the most diverse nations in the world. The "White dominant" culture was fragmented. Germans at one point were not "White". Then the "Irish". Now Arabs are not "White" (though they were for a period of time).

The US is unique in which it has a HUGE minority population. This defines the terms of culture. Thus, Whites borrow from minority populations and cultural norms change and are accomodated.

As you see, the US is a toss salad. People retain their identities while contributing to the "salad" of our nation. It always has been this way.
My ancestors from E. Germany brought their Kosher style of cooking (the deli). My other ancestors from Ireland brought a holiday with them (St. Patrick's Day).

The biggest thing that links all cultures in the US together is the post post modern culture of consumption defined by globalization and mass media.
And, salads have a tendency to wilt -- whereas, a mixing bowl consolidates all of its ingredients. When citizens cannot communicate, they cannot share a common “American” culture. It becomes another Tower of Babel. . . . fragmented and balkanized.
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Old 11-12-2009, 09:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
And, salads have a tendency to wilt -- whereas, a mixing bowl consolidates all of its ingredients. When citizens cannot communicate, they cannot share a common “American” culture. It becomes another Tower of Babel. . . . fragmented and balkanized.
Okay so you don't really understand the analogy. It's not a literal salad, it doesn't wilt. Also Balkanization occurred under the guise of trying to uniformly have ethnic Serbs as the top dogs (thus, Serbian culture as the main culture). Balkanization occurs when one group doesn't allow minority expression, not when there are many minorities. Remember too that the Balkan region underwent HUGE political reforms for most of it's history. So not a great comparison.

The Tower of Babel is a mythical story. Doesn't hold water.

That argument is moot since the salad itself is the common culture...all pieces forming the whole.

Again, the biggest common factor in America is the ability to shop. That is what most of our holidays glorify, that's what many of our cultural milestones glorify, and that is what our economy is highly dependent on...consumption.
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
China is still Chinese culturally, Ireland is still Irish culturally, Germany is still German culturally, Mexico is still Hispanic culturally even though they have immigrants living there and yet when the USA tries to retain it's native culture for some reason it is considered a negative thing and even racist by the ethnocentric, tribal minded whose native culture is not our basic and identifyng culture. Why is that? Is it because some minorities can't stand for a dominant white country to remain that way but in their own homelands the reverse is ok and in fact are adamant about retaining their native cultures as the dominant one? What hypocrites! What is happening to change our basic culture is directly through illegal immigation from mostly one ethnic group. It isn't a natural phenomenum.

I see your confusion...and I share it. Apparently, the US is one of the most diverse nations on earth...but it's not diverse ENOUGH, and so we must strive for MORE diversity. We're mean, unkind, and unwelcoming to foreigners, though we're really 'all immigrants' ourselves...and we're mostly unsophisticated, monolingual, provincial xenophobes, but we're expected to 'adapt' to a constant stream of culturally-diverse 'newcomers', because that's always been our tradition...welcoming newcomers. We don't know much..nor do we care much...about other cultures, but we're really a multicultual society...and even though people in various parts of the world may regard each other with fear and mistrust and even mutual hatred, when they arrive HERE, they'll all be able to "get along" with each other...and with US...because we have a welcoming, inclusive society....racist, unfriendly, and xenophobic though we may be, we're really 'good guys' underneath..and though we include every culture on earth, we're not supposed to "act" like other countries, because we're "not LIKE that....we're different here"....(even though we're REALLY all the same).

I THINK that's how it goes, if I understand correctly what I'm reading. Hope this clears things up....
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