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Old 11-09-2009, 05:14 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
If Americans living in Mexico permanantly don't assimilate to that country's language and culture then they are the tribal ones. I don't discriminate in my assessment of tribalism.
Not sure why we keep citing Mexico, as opposed to other foreign nations...but OK, let's talk about Mexico. There are HUGE numbers of Americans living happily in Mexico. How many of them speak Spanish, I couldn't guess....a good percentage, probably. Whether they assimilate to 'that culture' is a fair question...but here's 'the rub'....Americans, as a rule, don't go to Mexico 'asking' for much. They do not seek jobs on the open labor market. They do not compete with the Mexican working class for wages. Most Americans in Mexico arrive there with the means to support themselves already in place. Many are retirees.

Americans in Mexico CERTAINLY do not 'agitate' for special consideration...the CERTAINLY do not get mixed up in groups 'pressuring' Mexican lawmakers....and if they have any nasty remarks, or disparaging comments about Mexicans, or how they think, or how they run their society, or their culture, I suspect they either keep their opinions to themselves, or suffer the massive disapproval of their Mexican neighbors. Mexico has an old, proud culture...it intends to REMAIN Mexican....and it does not welcome foreigners who arrive, look around, and begin to give their opinion on how Mexicans 'should'...or 'should not'..do things....or what a 'dumb' country it is...

Mexico promptly deports those foreigners who 'get out of line'...including those who meddle in activist politics.

That shouldn't surprise anyone, and anyone who objects to the way Mexico "is", would probably be well advised not to move there.

It seems so simple, I'm surprised certain other countries haven't gotten the idea. If you don't like the laws of a country, then stay away. Makes sense to me.
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Old 11-09-2009, 05:21 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Not sure why we keep citing Mexico, as opposed to other foreign nations...but OK, let's talk about Mexico. There are HUGE numbers of Americans living happily in Mexico. How many of them speak Spanish, I couldn't guess....a good percentage, probably. Whether they assimilate to 'that culture' is a fair question...but here's 'the rub'....Americans, as a rule, don't go to Mexico 'asking' for much. They do not seek jobs on the open labor market. They do not compete with the Mexican working class for wages. Most Americans in Mexico arrive there with the means to support themselves already in place. Many are retirees.

Americans in Mexico CERTAINLY do not 'agitate' for special consideration...the CERTAINLY do not get mixed up in groups 'pressuring' Mexican lawmakers....and if they have any nasty remarks, or disparaging comments about Mexicans, or how they think, or how they run their society, or their culture, I suspect they either keep their opinions to themselves, or suffer the massive disapproval of their Mexican neighbors. Mexico has an old, proud culture...it intends to REMAIN Mexican....and it does not welcome foreigners who arrive, look around, and begin to give their opinion on how Mexicans 'should'...or 'should not'..do things....or what a 'dumb' country it is...

Mexico promptly deports those foreigners who 'get out of line'...including those who meddle in activist politics.

That shouldn't surprise anyone, and anyone who objects to the way Mexico "is", would probably be well advised not to move there.

It seems so simple, I'm surprised certain other countries haven't gotten the idea. If you don't like the laws of a country, then stay away. Makes sense to me.
I brought up Mexico because the poster I was responding to did so first. Not to mention that most of the illegals in this country are from Mexico.

You are right on in all of your remarks, however.
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Old 11-09-2009, 05:38 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
And just why should we focus on rewarding illegal aliens with legalization? We did that in 1986 and look how that turned out. Now we have quadruple the number of illegal aliens we had back then. You aren't even taking into consideration if we have jobs and resources to accomodate these millions not to mention the chain migration of their families that will follow with their granted citizenship. How many millions more added to our population will make you happy? Sorry, but you have tunnel vision for the future of our nation. A smaller economy to fit a smaller population is much healthier for our nation in the long wrong.

Another thing is that legalization will favor Hispanics in particular since they are by far the overwhelming majority of illegals in this country. How is that fair to other immigrants from other ethnic groups still waiting to come here the legal way?
Certain illegal immigrants qualified, first off. Secondly, the attempt was aimed not comprehensive reform.

The market is currently dictating the immigration flow...not policy. So right now, due to the lackluster economy, immigration is down (immigrants, legal or not, simply do not have the capital to move to a new country). The market is a better shaper of immigration. Illegal immigrants that are 'not making' it have left.

Tunnel vision implies that I take only one thing into consideration and forming a conclusion based on one factor. Not the case. A smaller economy is worse...seeing how the population of the world will increase (thus, increased demand and automatically a larger economy). An economy that grows with it's population is best. Thus, we need reform to try to match this model.

Legalization will not uniquely apply to Hispanics, so this is a moot point.
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Old 11-09-2009, 06:30 PM
 
335 posts, read 281,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I've ALWAYS said that illegal workers in Huntington Beach are Americans. I have no problem with that. What makes ME angry are the illegal workers in Costa Mesa...most of THEM are Iraqis....and they have no right to be here.

As far as the illegal workers in Fountain Valley....I have no strong opinion on THEM, either way...

I've ALWAYS said that the difference between LEGAL workers and ILLEGAL workers is just two letters.."I" and "L"....and I'm not going to judge any group of people on something as insignificant as two letters. Lots of the world doesn't even USE the Western alphabet...so who cares about two letters, anyway?

We're ALL immigrants, after all....
Did you write this tongue-in-cheek? That the difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL is just two letters, and because of this, it's insignificant? If you were actually being serious, then this is one of the most ridiculous things that I've ever heard anybody say.

By the way, we are NOT all immigrants. I, along with millions of other Americans, was born in the United States. We didn't come here from another country.

Also, the legal definition of "American" is a person who is a citizen of the United States of America.
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Old 11-09-2009, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbartlebee View Post
Did you write this tongue-in-cheek? That the difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL is just two letters, and because of this, it's insignificant? If you were actually being serious, then this is one of the most ridiculous things that I've ever heard anybody say.

By the way, we are NOT all immigrants. I, along with millions of other Americans, was born in the United States. We didn't come here from another country.

Also, the legal definition of "American" is a person who is a citizen of the United States of America.
macmeal is quite anti illegal immigration----------he is very sarcastic.
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Old 11-09-2009, 06:38 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Certain illegal immigrants qualified, first off. Secondly, the attempt was aimed not comprehensive reform.

The market is currently dictating the immigration flow...not policy. So right now, due to the lackluster economy, immigration is down (immigrants, legal or not, simply do not have the capital to move to a new country). The market is a better shaper of immigration. Illegal immigrants that are 'not making' it have left.

Tunnel vision implies that I take only one thing into consideration and forming a conclusion based on one factor. Not the case. A smaller economy is worse...seeing how the population of the world will increase (thus, increased demand and automatically a larger economy). An economy that grows with it's population is best. Thus, we need reform to try to match this model.

Legalization will not uniquely apply to Hispanics, so this is a moot point.
But what is causing this increase in our population? ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, that's what! So our economy should become overblown to accomodate illegal labor? I never said that legalization would only apply to Hispanics. Can't you read? I said that it will benefit them most because they are the largest number here illegally. As I asked, how fair is that to immigrants of other ethnic groups waiting to come here legally? For someone preaching the beauty of multi-culturism, how does that work with mostly Hispanic "immigrants" coming here?

I note that you wouldn't respond to my remarks about you not even considering whether or not we have jobs and resources to accomodate these millions and their chain migration families. You wouldn't respond to how many millions more people you think we should increase our population by. As I said, you have tunnel vision for this country. The economy isn't everything when you consider our dwindling natural resources, overcrowded conditions and demands of social needs with large increases in our population.
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Old 11-10-2009, 04:15 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
For the umpteenth time expecting immgrants to assimilate in our country is not a tribal concept nor is an "us" vs "them" concept. It is the immigrants that have a separatist, colonizing rather than assimialting viewpoint that are being tribal. You are the one who can't grasp it!

If Americans living in Mexico permanantly don't assimilate to that country's language and culture then they are the tribal ones. I don't discriminate in my assessment of tribalism.
LEARN some anthropology. LEARN history. God, open a book. Read the post I had with MacMeal...assimilation is not that easy, nor has it ever been. Assimilation typically is result of the new culture impacting the old. The new standard is made. It's sad that you don't understand. Hopefully this helped.

I know you don't discriminate your assessment of tribalism, but you clearly don't know what it is...
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Old 11-10-2009, 04:22 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
But what is causing this increase in our population? ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, that's what! So our economy should become overblown to accomodate illegal labor? I never said that legalization would only apply to Hispanics. Can't you read? I said that it will benefit them most because they are the largest number here illegally. As I asked, how fair is that to immigrants of other ethnic groups waiting to come here legally? For someone preaching the beauty of multi-culturism, how does that work with mostly Hispanic "immigrants" coming here?

I note that you wouldn't respond to my remarks about you not even considering whether or not we have jobs and resources to accomodate these millions and their chain migration families. You wouldn't respond to how many millions more people you think we should increase our population by. As I said, you have tunnel vision for this country. The economy isn't everything when you consider our dwindling natural resources, overcrowded conditions and demands of social needs with large increases in our population.
"Another thing is that legalization will favor Hispanics in particular since they are by far the overwhelming majority of illegals in this country. How is that fair to other immigrants from other ethnic groups still waiting to come here the legal way?"

This is comment I responded to. You asked if it was fair to others, I reponded "yes". Can YOU read? If not, that's okay. Since it is regardless of ethnicity, it is fair...25-30% of illegal immigrants are non-Hispanic. So, good luck in debate.

I notice that you did not realize I responded to your remarks. Reread the post. I posted the decrease due to the lackluster economy. That the market dictates how immigration patterns go. Maybe you didn't catch that.

Well, Malthus...what is our carrying capacity in the US?
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Old 11-10-2009, 06:06 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
LEARN some anthropology. LEARN history. God, open a book. Read the post I had with MacMeal...assimilation is not that easy, nor has it ever been. Assimilation typically is result of the new culture impacting the old. The new standard is made. It's sad that you don't understand. Hopefully this helped.

I know you don't discriminate your assessment of tribalism, but you clearly don't know what it is...
No, you clearly don't know the difference between a nation with an identity culturally and lingually that the majority adhere to and an ethnic group who would rather remain separate rather than conform which is tribalism. They always put their own first also instead of thinking of themselves as part of the majority.
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Old 11-10-2009, 06:14 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
"Another thing is that legalization will favor Hispanics in particular since they are by far the overwhelming majority of illegals in this country. How is that fair to other immigrants from other ethnic groups still waiting to come here the legal way?"

This is comment I responded to. You asked if it was fair to others, I reponded "yes". Can YOU read? If not, that's okay. Since it is regardless of ethnicity, it is fair...25-30% of illegal immigrants are non-Hispanic. So, good luck in debate.

I notice that you did not realize I responded to your remarks. Reread the post. I posted the decrease due to the lackluster economy. That the market dictates how immigration patterns go. Maybe you didn't catch that.

Well, Malthus...what is our carrying capacity in the US?
How is it fair to others that Hispanics will by far benefit from an amnesty? If 25-30% of illegals are non-hispanic then that means that approximately 75% of them are Hispanic.

We reached the ideal carrying capacity of the U.S. at around 200 million. We are well past that. Try reading susps.org. Of course you will probably say it is a biased source because it doesn't suit your agenda.

Smaller economy, smaller population. That is what will keep our country healthier in the long run. Money isn't everything.
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