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Old 11-09-2009, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
They shouldn't. It's a choice.

I could go play basketball (I'm 6'6") with a bunch of 7-year olds if I wanted to, but that doesn't mean I'm their equal.
You did not quote the rest of my post: illegals have no business being here in the first place------------they along with their enablers need to be severely punished.
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Old 11-09-2009, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by energizerrabbit View Post
I'm ridiculing you who are on internet connect computers, with the privileges of being an American citizen, really trying to suggest that illegal aliens are living better lives than you.

The violin is playing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
Then perhaps Legal Joe should better market himself to the marketplace, if he had better qualifications he wouldn't have to compete with illegal immigrants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
They shouldn't. It's a choice.

I could go play basketball (I'm 6'6") with a bunch of 7-year olds if I wanted to, but that doesn't mean I'm their equal.
I will never have to compete against the illiterate or unskilled of any immigration status. However, there are millions of citizens, for various reasons, being displaced by dirt cheap illegal labor from foreign countries, simply to satisfy the greed of unscrupulous employers. This is not only morally wrong, it is criminal.

NO CITIZEN should be forced to compete against foreigners living in this country illegally. Would you embrace millions of illegal skilled professionals? Would you support illegal immigration if YOUR job or profession was suddenly threatened by millions of professional illegals willing to work for a quarter of your salary? Would you be so condescending if the only way YOU, with a Master’s and years of experience, could survive, would be by sharing a 2-bedroom apartment with 20 other people? Is this the lifestyle you worked hard to enjoy?

It’s easy to sit there on your high horse and deride others who are less fortunate. Clearly, empathy is not your strong suit. I shudder to think of where this country would be today if citizens were only willing to get involved in issues which personally impact their lives. The Civil Rights Movement was not exclusively comprised of black folks fighting for equality; there were many white Americans who not only fought, but died for this cause. I guess you would consider them stupid for getting involved in a “black” issue. After all, it didn’t directly impact their lives.

After employers have had their fill of illegal unskilled labor, there is absolutely nothing preventing them from seeking to further increase their profits by replacing degreed professional citizens with degreed illegals. This is, after all, the preferred destination for the citizens of the world.

Don’t think this is farfetched, because it is already happening “legally” through professional work visas. Ask the professional IT staff at Bank of America, IBM and countless other organizations, how they feel being unemployed because their jobs have been outsourced or in-sourced in favor of cheap foreign labor. The corporate elite are only concerned with profits -- by ANY means.

Perhaps if the pendulum swings, and the preferred “professional” workforce is comprised of illegal foreigners eager to accept lower wages; then, illegal immigration will have relevance to the ivory tower dwellers.

If you honestly believe this is an issue of skills and marketability, you are ignorant of the dynamics of the cheap labor industry. If you ever wake up, it will be my pleasure to play the violin for you.

I’ll start practicing now. . . .http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o28/megolf/aniviolin.gif (broken link)
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Old 11-09-2009, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I will never have to compete against the illiterate or unskilled of any immigration status. However, there are millions of citizens, for various reasons, being displaced by dirt cheap illegal labor from foreign countries, simply to satisfy the greed of unscrupulous employers. This is not only morally wrong, it is criminal.

NO CITIZEN should be forced to compete against foreigners living in this country illegally. Would you embrace millions of illegal skilled professionals? Would you support illegal immigration if YOUR job or profession was suddenly threatened by millions of professional illegals willing to work for a quarter of your salary? Would you be so condescending if the only way YOU, with a Master’s and years of experience, could survive, would be by sharing a 2-bedroom apartment with 20 other people? Is this the lifestyle you worked hard to enjoy?

It’s easy to sit there on your high horse and deride others who are less fortunate. Clearly, empathy is not your strong suit. I shudder to think of where this country would be today if citizens were only willing to get involved in issues which personally impact their lives. The Civil Rights Movement was not exclusively comprised of black folks fighting for equality; there were many white Americans who not only fought, but died for this cause. I guess you would consider them stupid for getting involved in a “black” issue. After all, it didn’t directly impact their lives.

After employers have had their fill of illegal unskilled labor, there is absolutely nothing preventing them from seeking to further increase their profits by replacing degreed professional citizens with degreed illegals. This is, after all, the preferred destination for the citizens of the world.

Don’t think this is farfetched, because it is already happening “legally” through professional work visas. Ask the professional IT staff at Bank of America, IBM and countless other organizations, how they feel being unemployed because their jobs have been outsourced or in-sourced in favor of cheap foreign labor. The corporate elite are only concerned with profits -- by ANY means.

Perhaps if the pendulum swings, and the preferred “professional” workforce is comprised of illegal foreigners eager to accept lower wages; then, illegal immigration will have relevance to the ivory tower dwellers.

If you honestly believe this is an issue of skills and marketability, you are ignorant of the dynamics of the cheap labor industry. If you ever wake up, it will be my pleasure to play the violin for you.

I’ll start practicing now. . . .
Very eloquent post----------although, I doubt the illegal alien apologists will ever grasp it even if their jobs were on the line.
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Old 11-09-2009, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
12,840 posts, read 23,199,762 times
Reputation: 12223
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
So you think that illegals who just jumped our border with no education or skills are better qualified for a job than an American who finished school and were already employed for example as a construction worker is better qualified than he? You know damned well this is about greed on the employer's part. It has nothing to do with better skills. Or are you claiming instead that an American has no right to a blue collar job and they should all be white collar workers so that illegals can take all the blue collar jobs in this country? Disgusting attitude to say the least!
Wrong and wrong.

I never said they were better qualified. And DUH, this is about greed on the employers part. Nobody is stopping the employers and nobody is stopping the illegals.

I am a blue-collar worker that occasionally wears a white one. If an illegal were to come along and take my job at 1/2 or less the pay, then more power to him, the same can be said about another American coming and taking my job for less pay.

What my employer would have to take into account, is A) would the illegal provide the same output as I for less pay? B) is the potential savings/profit worth taking the chance of hiring an illegal (breaking the law)?

There's nothing I can do about it. For instance, a guy (red-blooded American) in our company just quit. He made half of what I do for the same job. They could have easily fired me and given him my job at his pay, and hired another at his pay. But they would have gotten half the work ethic and half the intelligence in return. If they had done that, that would have been their choice, it's up to each business owner to decide how they want their business run. Quality, high-paid people produce better output.

I don't want to lose my job, to an illegal or an American. I believe the threat from either is equal on a personal level. At least in my case, my employer shares the same sentiments regarding illegals as you do, which is an advantage for me.
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Old 11-09-2009, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
12,840 posts, read 23,199,762 times
Reputation: 12223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I will never have to compete against the illiterate or unskilled of any immigration status. However, there are millions of citizens, for various reasons, being displaced by dirt cheap illegal labor from foreign countries, simply to satisfy the greed of unscrupulous employers. This is not only morally wrong, it is criminal.

NO CITIZEN should be forced to compete against foreigners living in this country illegally. Would you embrace millions of illegal skilled professionals? Would you support illegal immigration if YOUR job or profession was suddenly threatened by millions of professional illegals willing to work for a quarter of your salary? Would you be so condescending if the only way YOU, with a Master’s and years of experience, could survive, would be by sharing a 2-bedroom apartment with 20 other people? Is this the lifestyle you worked hard to enjoy?

It’s easy to sit there on your high horse and deride others who are less fortunate. Clearly, empathy is not your strong suit. I shudder to think of where this country would be today if citizens were only willing to get involved in issues which personally impact their lives. The Civil Rights Movement was not exclusively comprised of black folks fighting for equality; there were many white Americans who not only fought, but died for this cause. I guess you would consider them stupid for getting involved in a “black” issue. After all, it didn’t directly impact their lives.

After employers have had their fill of illegal unskilled labor, there is absolutely nothing preventing them from seeking to further increase their profits by replacing degreed professional citizens with degreed illegals. This is, after all, the preferred destination for the citizens of the world.

Don’t think this is farfetched, because it is already happening “legally” through professional work visas. Ask the professional IT staff at Bank of America, IBM and countless other organizations, how they feel being unemployed because their jobs have been outsourced or in-sourced in favor of cheap foreign labor. The corporate elite are only concerned with profits -- by ANY means.

Perhaps if the pendulum swings, and the preferred “professional” workforce is comprised of illegal foreigners eager to accept lower wages; then, illegal immigration will have relevance to the ivory tower dwellers.

If you honestly believe this is an issue of skills and marketability, you are ignorant of the dynamics of the cheap labor industry. If you ever wake up, it will be my pleasure to play the violin for you.

I’ll start practicing now. . . .
I have worked with (and competed with, I suppose) illegals. IMO, I had advantages that they didn't, many of them couldn't speak English, and many of them had difficulty relating to customers in our well-known chain restaurant. That's why I was the waiter, and they were the busboys. If they wanted to promote them to waiters, quality of service would have gone down, and business would have suffered. If I had been "forced out" by illegals and thought they were to blame for my job loss, then I might have considered relocating to a locale where there were less of them. Or I could have let them have their cake (in reality, I moved on from the locale, and the restaurant business).

As I said in my previous post, of course it's the employers/business' greed at play. So is the illegal immigration debate more about the employers lack of ethics, or about the illegals themselves? There are quite a few on this forum that seem to make it more about the actual people, who are mostly Hispanic. The debate about work and employment is far more relevant and valid.

I don't think things are as serious as you imply. Again, I'm not a professional, I'm blue collar, and only have a HS diploma and very little college complete. I guess in my situation now, I'm threatened by illegals, and I guess you could say I'm also threatened by unemployed Americans. There are illegals here in Denver, and in theory they could do my job so long as they had a usable brain, a work ethic, and the willingness to put in long hours. Should I be shaking in my boots? If an illegal (or anybody for that matter) comes along and takes my job, more power to him. I'll move on to something else, another industry possibly, another career, or maybe even another locale. Life's too short.

Don't get me wrong, I see what you are saying, but economic forces will take control if MBA's start earning $12.50 an hour. If enough illegals or foreigners come here, take jobs, and drastically lower wages, eventually the displaced Americans will be able to compete with them at their wages (or lower) as well. If an illegal/foreigner is willing to work for those wages, surely an American can as well (if need be).

Sadly, the core American principle of "hard work pays off" seems to be dying a slow death. But I will continue to believe it does.
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Old 11-09-2009, 01:32 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
Wrong and wrong.

I never said they were better qualified. And DUH, this is about greed on the employers part. Nobody is stopping the employers and nobody is stopping the illegals.

I am a blue-collar worker that occasionally wears a white one. If an illegal were to come along and take my job at 1/2 or less the pay, then more power to him, the same can be said about another American coming and taking my job for less pay.

What my employer would have to take into account, is A) would the illegal provide the same output as I for less pay? B) is the potential savings/profit worth taking the chance of hiring an illegal (breaking the law)?

There's nothing I can do about it. For instance, a guy (red-blooded American) in our company just quit. He made half of what I do for the same job. They could have easily fired me and given him my job at his pay, and hired another at his pay. But they would have gotten half the work ethic and half the intelligence in return. If they had done that, that would have been their choice, it's up to each business owner to decide how they want their business run. Quality, high-paid people produce better output.

I don't want to lose my job, to an illegal or an American. I believe the threat from either is equal on a personal level. At least in my case, my employer shares the same sentiments regarding illegals as you do, which is an advantage for me.

What kind of an American would make this statement? " I am a blue-collar worker that occasionally wears a white one. If an illegal were to come along and take my job at 1/2 or less the pay, then more power to him". So it is ok with you if your employer and an illegal would circumvent our labor and immigration laws and therefore fire you as a legal American for a fast buck? What kind of morality code were you brought up on? It is a whole different ball of wax if an employer decides to get rid of you and put another legal American worker in your place. You are comparing apples with oranges here.
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Old 11-09-2009, 01:33 PM
 
Location: The Wine Country, CA
807 posts, read 1,116,734 times
Reputation: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
Then perhaps Legal Joe should better market himself to the marketplace, if he had better qualifications he wouldn't have to compete with illegal immigrants.
Or maybe the Illegal Alien should try to find another way to support his family other than illegal entering another country, undercutting that country's citizens AND breaking the laws!
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Old 11-09-2009, 01:37 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
I have worked with (and competed with, I suppose) illegals. IMO, I had advantages that they didn't, many of them couldn't speak English, and many of them had difficulty relating to customers in our well-known chain restaurant. That's why I was the waiter, and they were the busboys. If they wanted to promote them to waiters, quality of service would have gone down, and business would have suffered. If I had been "forced out" by illegals and thought they were to blame for my job loss, then I might have considered relocating to a locale where there were less of them. Or I could have let them have their cake (in reality, I moved on from the locale, and the restaurant business).

As I said in my previous post, of course it's the employers/business' greed at play. So is the illegal immigration debate more about the employers lack of ethics, or about the illegals themselves? There are quite a few on this forum that seem to make it more about the actual people, who are mostly Hispanic. The debate about work and employment is far more relevant and valid.

I don't think things are as serious as you imply. Again, I'm not a professional, I'm blue collar, and only have a HS diploma and very little college complete. I guess in my situation now, I'm threatened by illegals, and I guess you could say I'm also threatened by unemployed Americans. There are illegals here in Denver, and in theory they could do my job so long as they had a usable brain, a work ethic, and the willingness to put in long hours. Should I be shaking in my boots? If an illegal (or anybody for that matter) comes along and takes my job, more power to him. I'll move on to something else, another industry possibly, another career, or maybe even another locale. Life's too short.

Don't get me wrong, I see what you are saying, but economic forces will take control if MBA's start earning $12.50 an hour. If enough illegals or foreigners come here, take jobs, and drastically lower wages, eventually the displaced Americans will be able to compete with them at their wages (or lower) as well. If an illegal/foreigner is willing to work for those wages, surely an American can as well (if need be).

Sadly, the core American principle of "hard work pays off" seems to be dying a slow death. But I will continue to believe it does.
I can tell you only have a high school diploma with this tripe. "If enough illegals or foreigners come here, take jobs, and drastically lower wages, eventually the displaced Americans will be able to compete with them at their wages (or lower) as well. If an illegal/foreigner is willing to work for those wages, surely an American can as well (if need be)."

FYI, Americans don't want to live like these third world peasants! We don't want to live 3 or 4 families in a household to make ends meet from crappy wages. Here is some advice. Get an education beyond your HS diploma and gain some moral fortitude while you are at it.
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Old 11-09-2009, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
12,840 posts, read 23,199,762 times
Reputation: 12223
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
What kind of an American would make this statement? " I am a blue-collar worker that occasionally wears a white one. If an illegal were to come along and take my job at 1/2 or less the pay, then more power to him". So it is ok with you if your employer and an illegal would circumvent our labor and immigration laws and therefore fire you as a legal American for a fast buck? What kind of morality code were you brought up on? It is a whole different ball of wax if an employer decides to get rid of you and put another legal American worker in your place. You are comparing apples with oranges here.
Okay, I get it. All you want to do is argue.

I'll indulge.

What kind of American? Are you disputing my American-hood? The blue/white collar thing was nothing more than a joke.

No, it's not okay with me if ANYBODY takes my job. But there's no sense in sitting around and crying about it. It wouldn't be worth the time and energy to fight the fact that they are breaking the law. How would I even know for a fact that the guy that replaced me was illegal? Would they show me his lack of papers before I'm given the pink slip? Why spend my time fighting the morals (or lack thereof) what would turn out to be my previous employer? Please.

What kind of morality code was I brought up on? SO NOW YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MY MOMMA? I was taught to pick my battles, and fighting for a job I've already lost will only take time away from finding a new one.

It's not a different ball of wax, or fruit. The end result would be me losing my job. Period.

I choose to distance myself from those who wrong me. Sitting around and questioning their ethics/morals doesn't do anything to help me or improve my situation.
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Old 11-09-2009, 02:27 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,921 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
I can tell you only have a high school diploma with this tripe. "If enough illegals or foreigners come here, take jobs, and drastically lower wages, eventually the displaced Americans will be able to compete with them at their wages (or lower) as well. If an illegal/foreigner is willing to work for those wages, surely an American can as well (if need be)."

FYI, Americans don't want to live like these third world peasants! We don't want to live 3 or 4 families in a household to make ends meet from crappy wages. Here is some advice. Get an education beyond your HS diploma and gain some moral fortitude while you are at it.
He stated a simple fact of economics...if the wages overall are lower, thus those that want to compete need to take lower wages. It really isn't too hard of a concept. BTW, where did you go to school?
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