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Old 11-12-2009, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
That was more for the sake of argument than anything else, although I do strongly believe that the undocumented population has improved my neighborhood and many others would agree with me.

I don't see the issues as black and white like the regular posters on here. I definitely see illegal immigration as a serious problem and I realize that the current system is completely dysfunctional. I wouldn't call myself pro-illegal, I just think we need to develop a better plan and correctly enforce it. I just don't see most of your solutions as being cost-effective. Enforcing E-verify is a great way to protect Americans companies and American workers, building a huge wall and hiring thousands of border patrol guards to line the borders is NOT cost-effective. Deporting someone 18 times just so they can try to come back the next day is NOT cost-effective.
On this (bolded) we concur. How would you address it?
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,891 posts, read 12,249,807 times
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The way I see it, we can't eliminate the demand for people to immigrate here, and for many if they can't do it legally they will do it illegally. I would improve the legal immigration process and give many more people the opportunity to legally immigrate if they wish to do so, then make sure that all our systems of enforcement are in place to discourage the illegal portion, with HR systems like E-verify and ID matches and background checks, improving and increasing measures to prevent ID fraud, tax fraud, improve our medical system by ending free lunch, improve collection enforcement for medical bills, but at the same time easing access to medical insurance. Once the system is improved you can address the already existing undocumented population, I say document them and force them to pay penalties and back taxes wherever relevant. You can't ignore these people and it would be disastrous, costly and ineffective to even try and kick them all out. We would need to count our losses at that point, but the good news is with a new and improved system that we wouldn't have to worry about the problem repeating itself.
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:42 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,798 posts, read 30,034,103 times
Reputation: 17687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
The way I see it, we can't eliminate the demand for people to immigrate here, and for many if they can't do it legally they will do it illegally. I would improve the legal immigration process and give many more people the opportunity to legally immigrate if they wish to do so, then make sure that all our systems of enforcement are in place to discourage the illegal portion, with HR systems like E-verify and ID matches and background checks, improving and increasing measures to prevent ID fraud, tax fraud, improve our medical system by ending free lunch, improve collection enforcement for medical bills, but at the same time easing access to medical insurance. Once the system is improved you can address the already existing undocumented population, I say document them and force them to pay penalties and back taxes wherever relevant. You can't ignore these people and it would be disastrous, costly and ineffective to even try and kick them all out. We would need to count our losses at that point, but the good news is with a new and improved system that we wouldn't have to worry about the problem repeating itself.
So you'll be happy when we reach 3rd World status? That is where we will be if we increase the number of un-educated peasants. We aren't letting in Doctors you know, illegally that is.
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
The way I see it, we can't eliminate the demand for people to immigrate here, and for many if they can't do it legally they will do it illegally. I would improve the legal immigration process and give many more people the opportunity to legally immigrate if they wish to do so, then make sure that all our systems of enforcement are in place to discourage the illegal portion, with HR systems like E-verify and ID matches and background checks, improving and increasing measures to prevent ID fraud, tax fraud, improve our medical system by ending free lunch, improve collection enforcement for medical bills, but at the same time easing access to medical insurance. Once the system is improved you can address the already existing undocumented population, I say document them and force them to pay penalties and back taxes wherever relevant. You can't ignore these people and it would be disastrous, costly and ineffective to even try and kick them all out. We would need to count our losses at that point, but the good news is with a new and improved system that we wouldn't have to worry about the problem repeating itself.
Most of your suggestions would work, IF our government had the will. E-Verify could already be mandated for all employers, if not for the opposition from those who profit from illegal immigration. They pull the strings. Companies caught employing illegal aliens are not severely punished; they receive a slap on the wrist. The courts have even given the green light to fraudulent SSNs by ruling that if an illegal did not know that the SSN belonged to an ďactualĒ citizen, a charge of ID theft cannot be valid. Itís a travesty.

Our government canít even keep track of tourist visas. They will never close the holes. If we would simply enforce ALL existing laws, we would drastically reduce illegal immigration. If they canít work, and canít receive freebies, the majority would self-deport. Despite our failing economy, they continue to come, and they refuse to leave, because they know our government isnít serious. They realize greed trumps national security, and the will of the people.

There is absolutely no desire by our government to secure our borders. Even post-9/11 our borders remain porous for any miscreant or terrorist to enter at will. Why would a country not secure its borders after such a devastating attack, and known enemies, if not to support an agenda? As long as the corporate elite own our government, they will continue to facilitate a steady flow of cheap labor to appease their masters. We are all being duped, because both parties are in bed with the cheap labor industry.

We granted amnesty to millions in 1986, and were promised by our government that it would NEVER happen again. We were also promised that our laws would be enforced, our borders would be secured, and that violators would be punished. None of those promises were honored. Now, we have millions more expecting another amnesty. Do we grant another amnesty and 20 years from now grant another amnesty to 80 million illegals? Where does it end? When will enough be enough?
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:16 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,144,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
The way I see it, we can't eliminate the demand for people to immigrate here, and for many if they can't do it legally they will do it illegally. I would improve the legal immigration process and give many more people the opportunity to legally immigrate if they wish to do so, then make sure that all our systems of enforcement are in place to discourage the illegal portion, with HR systems like E-verify and ID matches and background checks, improving and increasing measures to prevent ID fraud, tax fraud, improve our medical system by ending free lunch, improve collection enforcement for medical bills, but at the same time easing access to medical insurance. Once the system is improved you can address the already existing undocumented population, I say document them and force them to pay penalties and back taxes wherever relevant. You can't ignore these people and it would be disastrous, costly and ineffective to even try and kick them all out. We would need to count our losses at that point, but the good news is with a new and improved system that we wouldn't have to worry about the problem repeating itself.
I would ask you this then since you want our legal immigration numbers increased and to legalize all those already here illegally. Would you take into consideration our population growth and carrying capacity of this country in regards to overcrowding, the necessity of building many more schools, jails and hospitals and the additional staff it would require to run them? The traffic congestions? The depletion of our natural resources from additional population growth? Do we have jobs for all these illegal aliens and for the proposed increase in numbers to our legal immigrant quotas but first employing all able-bodied Americans? You don't seem to be taking any of this into consideration.

If you have read the stats on the costs of illegal immigration to our country you would know that it is cost effective to deport them instead. We don't let our own home grown law breakers run freely around our country because it is supposedly cheaper to allow that then to incarcerate them, do we? We are a nation of laws and enforcing them should be a priority above any costs involved to do so.
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,891 posts, read 12,249,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
So you'll be happy when we reach 3rd World status? That is where we will be if we increase the number of un-educated peasants. We aren't letting in Doctors you know, illegally that is.
We'll never reach 3rd world status, I'm pretty positive that would never happen.
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,891 posts, read 12,249,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
I would ask you this then since you want our legal immigration numbers increased and to legalize all those already here illegally. Would you take into consideration our population growth and carrying capacity of this country in regards to overcrowding, the necessity of building many more schools, jails and hospitals and the additional staff it would require to run them? The traffic congestions? The depletion of our natural resources from additional population growth? Do we have jobs for all these illegal aliens and for the proposed increase in numbers to our legal immigrant quotas but first employing all able-bodied Americans? You don't seem to be taking any of this into consideration.
I'm not too worried about that, you been to places like Montana, Wyoming, Iowa, Idaho, Nebraska, North Dakota, South Dakota, Utah lately? They are all practically empty...we could handle the entire population of Mexico in this country and we'd still have plenty of extra room.
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:43 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,144,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
I'm not too worried about that, you been to places like Montana, Wyoming, Iowa, Idaho, Nebraska, North Dakota, South Dakota, Utah lately? They are all practically empty...we could handle the entire population of Mexico in this country and we'd still have plenty of extra room.
Here is where you go wrong. Carrying capacity means the ability to be able to provide the social needs, natural resources, etc. to a given population. How many immigrants want to live in those cold places that lack economic opportunity? That is why our cities are so crowded. That is where the economic/job opportunities are and that is where most people congregate. If we have plenty of natural resources for ourselves plus the entire country of Mexico then why are there always energy and water shortages?

The answer is for Mexico to retain it's own citizens and create economic opportunties for them, not us. We don't truly have labor shortages in this country just the greedy employers wanting the cheap foreign labor.
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,891 posts, read 12,249,807 times
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I agree that Mexico should retain it's own citizens and create economic opportunities for them, that would of course be ideal. I also think it's in the best interest of the Mexican government to do what's possible to retain its people, because population stability and growth is necessary for economic stability and growth. Look at countries like China and India, half the reason those countries are catching up so fast is because they have huge populations and are finally finding ways to take advantage of it.
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:55 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Here is where you go wrong. Carrying capacity means the ability to be able to provide the social needs, natural resources, etc. to a given population. How many immigrants want to live in those cold places that lack economic opportunity? That is why our cities are so crowded. That is where the economic/job opportunities are and that is where most people congregate. If we have plenty of natural resources for ourselves plus the entire country of Mexico then why are there always energy and water shortages?

The answer is for Mexico to retain it's own citizens and create economic opportunties for them, not us. We don't truly have labor shortages in this country just the greedy employers wanting the cheap foreign labor.
Not a proven theory. One HUGE flaw is that is it assumes consistency in conservation patterns and technology.

Also does not account for global trade as well.

Most models suggest that if there is a carrying capacity, the population would simply level off, not crash as per your implication.
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