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Old 11-18-2009, 05:44 AM
 
47,573 posts, read 60,679,370 times
Reputation: 22283

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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
No argument here. Best wishes to the French, the Spanish, and the Germans...as well as the Japanese, the Czechs, and the Mexicans. But they're not like us. When a foreigner arrives in France; or Spain; or any OTHER of these places, he remains a foreigner, in public opinion, and in many case in legal terms, as well. He's not "French", he's a foreigner; etc etc.

When a foreigner arrives in the USA, he's instantly on the 'fast track' to becoming an American...and anyone who says otherwise is quickly corrected. He need do NOTHING, need learn no English, need to believe in NO principles, nor express any interest in American values, nor history...indeed, he may not even LIKE America, nor anything about it..neverthless, he'll quickly become an "American"...our laws guarantee it. If he's illegal, he'll be thought of as "wanting" to be American...but we won't "let him".
If he takes the "Oath of Citizenship", he'll have to swear loyalty to the US...but obviously, this is meaningless, since he'll be able to retain dual citizenship with his former country...and you can't be loyal to us, and loyal to somewhere else at the same time.

With all that in mind, I see little reason to expect foreigners to assimilate, other than personal whim.

I do NOT agree that our culture is the same as it was 200 years ago.
Unfortunately all that is true. USA citizenship is nothing but a paper that gets one more money or more government handouts and that's about it for many people. There's a dangerous kind of separatism building, a kind of tribalism that people don't see themselves as American - except when it comes to what they can get, but otherwise they are a different nation within a nation. Vicente Fox described what the goal was quite clearly, he came out and said a Mexican immigrant will remain Mexican but is to be given access to everything in the USA. All jobs, all educational opportunities, US citizenship -- the whole enchildada must be given to the Mexican diaspora -- the people of Mexico living here.

People now want their kids learning "their own language, their own country's history" while attending schools here in the USA, and they want our government to provide it all. No more learning about those white WASP Founding Fathers, or the signers of the Declaration of Independence if you are from some other country.

I think American culture has changed in that it was once a melting pot kind of culture and the newer immigrants have no intention of "melting in".

 
Old 11-18-2009, 10:26 AM
 
14 posts, read 34,528 times
Reputation: 18
I believe the U.S. has no official language. Any proposed Constitutional amendments have been unsuccessful.
 
Old 11-18-2009, 04:51 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,940,955 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Unfortunately all that is true. USA citizenship is nothing but a paper that gets one more money or more government handouts and that's about it for many people. There's a dangerous kind of separatism building, a kind of tribalism that people don't see themselves as American - except when it comes to what they can get, but otherwise they are a different nation within a nation. Vicente Fox described what the goal was quite clearly, he came out and said a Mexican immigrant will remain Mexican but is to be given access to everything in the USA. All jobs, all educational opportunities, US citizenship -- the whole enchildada must be given to the Mexican diaspora -- the people of Mexico living here.

People now want their kids learning "their own language, their own country's history" while attending schools here in the USA, and they want our government to provide it all. No more learning about those white WASP Founding Fathers, or the signers of the Declaration of Independence if you are from some other country.

I think American culture has changed in that it was once a melting pot kind of culture and the newer immigrants have no intention of "melting in".
All true...and all a product of our changing times. The old 'honor system' in which it was ASSUMED that all immigrants would be "grateful" to be able to come here...and would therefore express that gratitude by actively seeking to 'fit in' is now gone...it was always informal, never codified as a law, and now that 'obligation' people used to feel is a thing of the past (along with a lot of OTHER obligations).

I put it down to cultural differences. One culture's sense of obligation is quite different from another's. What's 'shameful' for one group may be simply 'business as usual' for another....and what's 'ethnocentric' in one group's opinion, may be regarded simply as a very healthy 'looking out for one's own' by the next group....all of these being perfectly "reasonable" ways to look at life, depending upon one's culture.

The old 'traditional' value of 'give-and-take', once an honored principle among most Americans, is no longer so prominent. Whereas once "You 'give' to me (the right to immigate here)", meant that I, in turn agreed to "give to you (my loyalty and my appreciation)". It worked for many years, but it was strictly on the 'honor system'....and without that honor, there's no 'give-and-take'. You can't have a 'gentlemen's agreement' unless everyone concerned is a gentleman. There's no obligation felt anymore, and without that, there's little incentive to 'feel' anything for the USA except that citizenship is a guarantee of extra 'goodies', for me and my own.

Ironic, isn't it, that our wide-open freedom of conscience, and our universal welcome for the "tired and poor"...the "huddled masses", etc., is now the very thing that's being used against us. Well, we certainly got what we asked for...the "tired and poor". They're more than happy to take us up on our generous offer. Trouble is, we forgot to ask the 'tired and poor' for anything in return....and today, many of them are giving us just exactly that. So much for 'assuming', I guess.

"Thankfulness" is not a universal human attribute....and we failed to write that down. So some people today are thankful for the freedom we offer... while others are just thankful for the 'jackpot' they see as 'theirs'....while still others aren't thankful at all, but almost resentful. All part of the huge spectrum of differing human cultures.
 
Old 11-18-2009, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 16,251,399 times
Reputation: 3029
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
All true...and all a product of our changing times. The old 'honor system' in which it was ASSUMED that all immigrants would be "grateful" to be able to come here...and would therefore express that gratitude by actively seeking to 'fit in' is now gone...it was always informal, never codified as a law, and now that 'obligation' people used to feel is a thing of the past (along with a lot of OTHER obligations).

I put it down to cultural differences. One culture's sense of obligation is quite different from another's. What's 'shameful' for one group may be simply 'business as usual' for another....and what's 'ethnocentric' in one group's opinion, may be regarded simply as a very healthy 'looking out for one's own' by the next group....all of these being perfectly "reasonable" ways to look at life, depending upon one's culture.

The old 'traditional' value of 'give-and-take', once an honored principle among most Americans, is no longer so prominent. Whereas once "You 'give' to me (the right to immigate here)", meant that I, in turn agreed to "give to you (my loyalty and my appreciation)". It worked for many years, but it was strictly on the 'honor system'....and without that honor, there's no 'give-and-take'. You can't have a 'gentlemen's agreement' unless everyone concerned is a gentleman. There's no obligation felt anymore, and without that, there's little incentive to 'feel' anything for the USA except that citizenship is a guarantee of extra 'goodies', for me and my own.

Ironic, isn't it, that our wide-open freedom of conscience, and our universal welcome for the "tired and poor"...the "huddled masses", etc., is now the very thing that's being used against us. Well, we certainly got what we asked for...the "tired and poor". They're more than happy to take us up on our generous offer. Trouble is, we forgot to ask the 'tired and poor' for anything in return....and today, many of them are giving us just exactly that.

"Thankfulness" is not a universal human attribute....and we failed to write that down. So some people today are thankful for the freedom we offer... while others are just thankful for the 'jackpot' they see as 'theirs'.
Outstanding, as usual. But, oh so sad.
 
Old 11-18-2009, 05:01 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,531,303 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
All true...and all a product of our changing times. The old 'honor system' in which it was ASSUMED that all immigrants would be "grateful" to be able to come here...and would therefore express that gratitude by actively seeking to 'fit in' is now gone...it was always informal, never codified as a law, and now that 'obligation' people used to feel is a thing of the past (along with a lot of OTHER obligations).

I put it down to cultural differences. One culture's sense of obligation is quite different from another's. What's 'shameful' for one group may be simply 'business as usual' for another....and what's 'ethnocentric' in one group's opinion, may be regarded simply as a very healthy 'looking out for one's own' by the next group....all of these being perfectly "reasonable" ways to look at life, depending upon one's culture.

The old 'traditional' value of 'give-and-take', once an honored principle among most Americans, is no longer so prominent. Whereas once "You 'give' to me (the right to immigate here)", meant that I, in turn agreed to "give to you (my loyalty and my appreciation)". It worked for many years, but it was strictly on the 'honor system'....and without that honor, there's no 'give-and-take'. You can't have a 'gentlemen's agreement' unless everyone concerned is a gentleman. There's no obligation felt anymore, and without that, there's little incentive to 'feel' anything for the USA except that citizenship is a guarantee of extra 'goodies', for me and my own.

Ironic, isn't it, that our wide-open freedom of conscience, and our universal welcome for the "tired and poor"...the "huddled masses", etc., is now the very thing that's being used against us. Well, we certainly got what we asked for...the "tired and poor". They're more than happy to take us up on our generous offer. Trouble is, we forgot to ask the 'tired and poor' for anything in return....and today, many of them are giving us just exactly that. So much for 'assuming', I guess.

"Thankfulness" is not a universal human attribute....and we failed to write that down. So some people today are thankful for the freedom we offer... while others are just thankful for the 'jackpot' they see as 'theirs'....while still others aren't thankful at all, but almost resentful. All part of the huge spectrum of differing human cultures.
Excellent post!!!
 
Old 11-20-2009, 04:03 PM
 
411 posts, read 413,304 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
And I repeat: outside of Spain/Latin America, Spanish is not an important language.

You need to face the fact that English is the lingua franca of the world:

Aviation
Diplomacy
Science

And you call me ignorant?

Do you realize that more people speak Spanish in the USA, than in spain??
 
Old 11-20-2009, 04:18 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,940,955 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latin King View Post
Do you realize that more people speak Spanish in the USA, than in spain??
I would imagine so. Also that more people speak English in the USA than in England.....
 
Old 11-20-2009, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 37,484,624 times
Reputation: 3800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latin King View Post
Do you realize that more people speak Spanish in the USA, than in spain??
And what is your point? Subtracting the (mostly Hispanic) illegal aliens; we have relatively few Spanish speakers here.
 
Old 11-20-2009, 09:16 PM
 
411 posts, read 413,304 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
And what is your point? Subtracting the (mostly Hispanic) illegal aliens; we have relatively few Spanish speakers here.

This is probably the most delusional statement I've ever seen in this forum. Yeah, sure it would leave just about 45 million hispanics, (if every single undocumented magically dissapearead), ....
 
Old 11-20-2009, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Land of Sunshine & Sh*t
163 posts, read 209,364 times
Reputation: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latin King View Post
This is probably the most delusional statement I've ever seen in this forum. Yeah, sure it would leave just about 45 million hispanics, (if every single undocumented magically dissapearead), ....
Yes but the 45 million hispanics that remain should be here LEGALLY and therefore be able to speak and understand English...at least well enough that we will no longer need to:

* Press 2 for Spanish
* Waste money on printing government forms in Spanish
* No longer waste health insurance money on translators.

etcetera...etcetera...etcetera

And maybe I'll finally stop getting flyers and communications from my utility companies that are written in Spanish or I'll be able to finally tell that annoying person that keeps calling my cell phone that they have the wrong number and they'll understand me.
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