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Old 07-14-2007, 10:44 AM
 
8,972 posts, read 10,618,560 times
Reputation: 2948

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 525600minutes View Post
Maybe it's me. Before I my girlfriend and I moved to Kansas City, and right after we graduated from college back home in NYC, we worked for three months on the Texas border with all types of people and it was fantastic. I learned Spanish by working beside migrant workers. These people were so dear to me.

I am so tired of:

1. People calling them "illegals". It is mean-spirited and completely uncharitible. What happened to the charity that the people of this nation are supposed to possess?

2. This war against other human beings that is nothing more than a thinly veiled racism.

3. Absolute fear of learning something new. People don't want Spanish to become prevalent in this country. When I was in college I engaged in a study abroad program in a country where there were 5 languages! It was fantastic! It was really interesting.

Undocumented workers are not taking our jobs. They are primarily occupying low-end jobs that pay very little, and they work hard and do it for their familes. Obviously, this country has some wealth to go around, yes?
Wonderful sentiments, and I commend you for your spirit of open-mindedness and good intentions. I say this with all due respect. The problem is, though, that your view on this makes pefect sense for a 16-year old. It does not, however, take into account the considerations of the adult American who may have a job, own a home, or have a child enrolled in school. Your world is a wonderful one, but totally ignores reality.
You can check my many posts on this if you like. I'm not a racist, or even a "meanie", but I do live in the "real world". Many years ago, I shared sentiments similar to yours. One thing that made me so "harsh" is the fact that I found myself owning some rental units. If you want to stay as idealistic as you now are, for GOD'S SAKE, don't EVER buy rental property. Take my word for it, you'll be jerked kicking and screaming into the REAL WORLD in short order. Good intentions don't pay the mortgage! Same sort of thing holds true on immigration or any other "social" issue. (PS--If you're up for a challenge, try this- have some "really nice" people live in your rental unit, and then have them decide to stop paying the rent, all while your expenses continue. Then report back to me, and let me know how many months it takes you to turn "mean"---you may surprise yourself !)
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Old 07-15-2007, 07:19 PM
 
1,942 posts, read 3,418,563 times
Reputation: 858
Quote:
2. This war against other human beings that is nothing more than a thinly veiled racism.
i find this statement to be both offensive and very ill-informed. you may not realize it, but most people who are anti-illegal immigration are not racists. they are simply people who feel that they have a stake in the future of this country and want it to continue to be the greatest country on earth for the sake of their children, and for the sake of me, you, and their friends and neighbors, be they white, black, hispanic, or asian. as the previous poster stated, your position makes sense for a young person without much experience in the real world.

it would appear that you do not realize that the people who come to this country illegally are refugees from the war waged against them in Mexico, and other Latin American countries.

for a more enlightened view on this topic, you may want to try doing some unbiased research and taking an honest look at why they flee there countries of origin, and why they come here.

notice i said unbiased and honest - not politically correct.
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Old 07-15-2007, 07:49 PM
 
7 posts, read 16,492 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linson View Post
i find this statement to be both offensive and very ill-informed. you may not realize it, but most people who are anti-illegal immigration are not racists. they are simply people who feel that they have a stake in the future of this country and want it to continue to be the greatest country on earth for the sake of their children, and for the sake of me, you, and their friends and neighbors, be they white, black, hispanic, or asian. as the previous poster stated, your position makes sense for a young person without much experience in the real world.

it would appear that you do not realize that the people who come to this country illegally are refugees from the war waged against them in Mexico, and other Latin American countries.

for a more enlightened view on this topic, you may want to try doing some unbiased research and taking an honest look at why they flee there countries of origin, and why they come here.

notice i said unbiased and honest - not politically correct.
If in fact this was a movement to secure the border from threats, then why the hell aren't they speaking about the Canadian border? More threats have come from the canadian side then the mexican side. The same statements about "illegals bringing down this country", were said about the Irish , germans and italians in the early 1900's. Now you use them as an example of prosperity. Why is now any different?
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Old 07-15-2007, 08:36 PM
 
1,942 posts, read 3,418,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinker View Post
If in fact this was a movement to secure the border from threats, then why the hell aren't they speaking about the Canadian border? More threats have come from the canadian side then the mexican side. The same statements about "illegals bringing down this country", were said about the Irish , germans and italians in the early 1900's. Now you use them as an example of prosperity. Why is now any different?
WOW! where to even begin...

first of all the movement to "secure the border" is a sham. it is a political maneuver to pacify the majority of this country who want something done about illegal immigration. as long as they can get jobs here, they will keep coming, and no damn fence is going to keep them out. using a link to terrorism is a way to use fear to further distract us from the real issue of illegal immigration. reallity check. terrorists are not likely to cross the southern border as do Latin American peasants. they are far too well funded. and yes, they would more likely enter through Canada, and even more likely enter legally at any port of entry. the real threat of illegal immigration comes from the Southern Border, not Canada. this, of course, is because Canadians typically enjoy a standard of living which has parity with that found in the United States. on the other hand, the U.S. / Mexico border is the only place on earth where you will find a first world country sharing a land border with a third world country. and it happens to be a 2,000 mile border.

Irish: okay. firstly, the Irish, Germans, Italians, ect. were for the most part, LEGAL immigrants. and they typically had a short period of heavy immigration, and then it would stop. the ILLEGAL immigration from Mexico has been a steady flood for over 30 years. this is because the situation in Mexico has never stabilized to the point that that country can support it's population. so for one thing the two are completely different in terms of scale. then there is the cultural impact. the Germans, the Irish, the Italians, the Polish, the Japanese, the Vietnamese all had a few things that the present day Latinos do not. 1). thousands of miles of ocean between them and their homeland. it wasnt that easy to get here, and not that easy to go back. 2). a feeling of being a minority. Spanish speaking people (Mexicans) are a majority in much of the Southwestern United States. so there is not a sense of urgency to learn our language and adopt our ways. secondly, perhaps due to the large number of Spanish-only speaking people now in this country, our society has made concessions to accomodate thier Spanish (i.e. "for Spanish, press 2") 3). basically, and again due to the overwhelming numbers ( and basically, the answer to your question of "what's the difference?" is overwhelming numbers) as a whole they do not feel the apparent need to assimilate into our American culture. that, and the devaluation of labor, which greedy corporations are all too eager to take advantage of. i've said it once, and i'll say it again. we're gonna miss the middle class when it's gone.

i hope this answered your questions.
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Old 07-15-2007, 10:57 PM
 
8,972 posts, read 10,618,560 times
Reputation: 2948
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linson View Post
WOW! where to even begin...

first of all the movement to "secure the border" is a sham. it is a political maneuver to pacify the majority of this country who want something done about illegal immigration. as long as they can get jobs here, they will keep coming, and no damn fence is going to keep them out. using a link to terrorism is a way to use fear to further distract us from the real issue of illegal immigration. reallity check. terrorists are not likely to cross the southern border as do Latin American peasants. they are far too well funded. and yes, they would more likely enter through Canada, and even more likely enter legally at any port of entry. the real threat of illegal immigration comes from the Southern Border, not Canada. this, of course, is because Canadians typically enjoy a standard of living which has parity with that found in the United States. on the other hand, the U.S. / Mexico border is the only place on earth where you will find a first world country sharing a land border with a third world country. and it happens to be a 2,000 mile border.

Irish: okay. firstly, the Irish, Germans, Italians, ect. were for the most part, LEGAL immigrants. and they typically had a short period of heavy immigration, and then it would stop. the ILLEGAL immigration from Mexico has been a steady flood for over 30 years. this is because the situation in Mexico has never stabilized to the point that that country can support it's population. so for one thing the two are completely different in terms of scale. then there is the cultural impact. the Germans, the Irish, the Italians, the Polish, the Japanese, the Vietnamese all had a few things that the present day Latinos do not. 1). thousands of miles of ocean between them and their homeland. it wasnt that easy to get here, and not that easy to go back. 2). a feeling of being a minority. Spanish speaking people (Mexicans) are a majority in much of the Southwestern United States. so there is not a sense of urgency to learn our language and adopt our ways. secondly, perhaps due to the large number of Spanish-only speaking people now in this country, our society has made concessions to accomodate thier Spanish (i.e. "for Spanish, press 2") 3). basically, and again due to the overwhelming numbers ( and basically, the answer to your question of "what's the difference?" is overwhelming numbers) as a whole they do not feel the apparent need to assimilate into our American culture. that, and the devaluation of labor, which greedy corporations are all too eager to take advantage of. i've said it once, and i'll say it again. we're gonna miss the middle class when it's gone.

i hope this answered your questions.
Many good points here. My constant rant on our troubles (in many previous posts) has been that we're in a cultural collapse. The entire western world is losing its bearings. I don't get many takers on this, but I honestly believe it's behind our present-day problems. Briefly, American culture has been in a huge "liberalization" since my teenage years in the 1960's. The new "kinder, gentler" society we live in broadly holds that NO ONE should suffer any inconvenience or setbacks. All "victims" of any imaginable description now have rights. This, of course includes immigrants, and the spirit of generosity even extends to ILLEGAL immigrants. It's not their fault, and they shouldn't "suffer", period. In this new way of thinking. there is no "fault" or "blame" attached to any disadvantaged group.
In the "tough" old days, when former immigrant groups arrived, life was very tough. They were teased, mocked, and generally treated poorly. What little help they got was through church groups, charities, etc. They were expected to learm English ASAP, and those who didn't were chided endlessly. In short, new arrivals in those days suffered something very much like "hazing"- the "new guy" got pushed around until he became a "member". There was a huge pressure to become an AMERICAN, as quickly as possible, in order to "fit in" and be accepted, to drop that "funny accent" and talk like "normal people".
In today's gentle society, there's no more "hazing". New arrivals are told by activists that they "deserve" full benefits from day one, regardless of their legal status, and if they don't immediately get these, they are fully within their rights to be "angry and resentful". Our government provides many services out of the public trough, again with the message that these are "entitlements".
There can be little wonder that the current immigration situation is turning out far differently than was the case in earlier decades...
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Old 07-16-2007, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas
185 posts, read 238,102 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinker View Post
If in fact this was a movement to secure the border from threats, then why the hell aren't they speaking about the Canadian border? More threats have come from the canadian side then the mexican side. The same statements about "illegals bringing down this country", were said about the Irish , germans and italians in the early 1900's. Now you use them as an example of prosperity. Why is now any different?
If I gash an artery on my left leg (southern border) and scratch my right leg (northern border) I'm not going to put bandaid on my right leg while I bleed to death.
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Old 08-25-2007, 08:07 PM
 
Location: In the desert
1,933 posts, read 1,139,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye48 View Post
What war are you taking about? We let 5 to 10 thousand illegals over the border every day. The ACLU takes to court any city or state that wants to protect itself. If a citizen complains that an illegal took his job, then he is labeled a racist.

There is a war going on all right, but the US hasn't declared war on illegals. The illegals have declared war on the United States, and they are winning.
Yes....hey we have spent billions on Iraq and we are almost winning
Maybe if people didnt vote this nutcase president into office a SECOND time some of that money could have went to enforcing the borders.
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Old 08-25-2007, 08:50 PM
 
1,266 posts, read 1,630,047 times
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<<Maybe if people didnt vote this nutcase president into office a SECOND time some of that money could have went to enforcing the borders.>>

It hasn't for decades so I don't know why having someone else in office would've helped. I'm surprised Bush isn't more proactive in enforcing the borders since he is a Republican. Heavens knows the Dems won't close the borders. Lord help us if they get in office....
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:10 AM
 
Location: Greater Houston
3,030 posts, read 5,709,819 times
Reputation: 903
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinker View Post
The same statements about "illegals bringing down this country", were said about the Irish , germans and italians in the early 1900's. Now you use them as an example of prosperity.
Don't forget that those dark-skinned illegal people are predominantly Catholic. Notice the anti-Catholicism here and in the turn of the 20th century example. This attitude stems from the colonial pride of being a WASP-y, Protestant country with a neutered King compared to Catholic, Monarchical Spain and its colonies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crittersitter View Post
Heavens knows the Dems won't close the borders. Lord help us if they get in office....
We need MORE freedom, not less. It's sad that the immigration laws are one-sided towards business that a rich businessman who is willing to start a business can immigrate much more easily than one and his family who wants to live in a different city albeit in a different country to experience the world. In other words, Rupert Murdoch can immigrate much more easily because of his assets than Joe Schmoe. Heck, this country has an unlimited number of visas for entertainers and celebrities--yes the Hollywood kind.

The immigration debate is senseless because this is used by the upper-class and Corporate America to divide the middle-class and the working class. The Irish and Negroes have been played against each other by WASP-y businessmen for their own benefit of distraction even with their similar histories of mistreatment by Anglo-Saxons and in the turn of the 20th century the middle-class was played by these same people to stop unionization by the working-class. In this case, it was used in 2006 because Republicans needed a new wedge issue (abortion was already used in 2004) to distract the attention that Iraq has been getting by the media. It didn't work and it backfired to this.

Last edited by KerrTown; 08-27-2007 at 01:26 AM..
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Old 08-19-2008, 09:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linson View Post
is anyone else tired of the war against America from within? is anyone else tired of well meaning kids who think that they want to give away everything that this country ever fought for because it's the nice thing to do or that we as a society have had it too good for too long?
anyone else tired of a government and a political correctness movement that is more concerned with the rights and well being of foreigners than with the rights and well being of Americans?

maybe i go too far...
Absolutely but everytime a candidate stands up for the rights of Americans the press turns on them like rabid dogs. Look what it's gotten us, candidates that aren't suitable for dog catcher let alone President.
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