U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-16-2009, 01:15 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,921 times
Reputation: 822

Advertisements

Hmmm good points. BUT,
The american dream? Not our job nor our responsibility. They should have entered legally and then I would agree.. Never reward illegal behavior. It only encourages more.

It's not a reward. See, a reward implies no work. Work is involved to obtain this (my idea being obtaining a job for x number of years, or obtaining a post secondary degree/vocational training). The market is a bigger factor driving illegal immigration. Immigration rates have fallen due to the global recession. I am interested to see the trend during the Great Depression. Some sources agree that immigration in general dropped during the Great Depression as well.

Educational needs. Once again that is a burden they (Forced) upon us..

However, higher education means LESS of a burden in the long run. This has been confirmed by a UCSB study that cites that the state of California would stand to save money if it properly educates its residents. The rationale is that the more educated on is, typically, the higher the salary. Thus, less people on welfare and other state programs. Also, many illegal immigrants attend inner city schools. Many of these schools don't get the same dollar per pupil spending as in nicer suburban communities. Thus, by targeting and reducing benefits to illegals, it may impact those legal citizens/residents who live closest to the illegal immigrant community.

Exploitation. In this case they are willing partners. No different than any other relationship amoung criminals.

It is. Classic 3rd world exploitation case. Desperate situation, means desperate measures. Exploitation is not a two way street. Never. Willing implies there are other choices. Typically not for illegal immigrants.

ESL classes? For legals by all means. Illegals not only do not deserve them but should be denied.

Wouldn't this end one of the greatest complaints on this forum?

deportation. It is costly and all the more reason to put pressure on illegals to self deport by making life in the USA impossible for them.
Enforce the laws without exception. Secure the border and stop no one from going south. hammer those who hire, rent or lease to illegals. That would include Lowes shoppers who use illegals.
Not impossible at all.

However, we know not ALL, not even a MAJORITY would self deport. Yes it is impossible. It's 2,000 miles. Do we build a wall in sectors? San Diego taught us that illegal immigrants would thus move to further and further outposts. Do we have a standing army on the border? This may destabilize the situation. It could lead to violence, since it would be seen as an act of agression. Also, how many troops? Again it's 2,000 miles. How long would the troops be there? That would get costly QUICK! Okay, how do we deport?

We should have laws that take into consideration the current realities. I agree that we should go after those who hire illegal immigrants (Lowe's shoppers...really though? That's a bit extreme). However, I would require they pay a fine (X dollars per person), require the companies to sponsor them. A fine high enough to be prohibitive...

Having continued harsh barriers of entry legally will only serve to perpetuate the black market of illegal immigration. Just like prohibition did for alcohol.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-16-2009, 01:41 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,921 times
Reputation: 822
With all due respect to both sides of the arguement. The leadership elite of the Western world is who is responsible for all this. The West cannot compete in a globalized market (WTO) against the emerging giants (China, India). Borders in general hinder globalized free markets. It is the Western power structure that wanted this set-up. I guess the power and wealth they have just isn't enough. They live in a different realm that the other 99.9% of the population. The integrity of borders, culture, race, religion and all the other things that lay at the foundation of our societal infrastructure, stand in their way. And yes, racism is a hinderence to profit. So fine. Get rid of racism, but leave the general identity of the nation state intact. This isn't enough, they want it all. I truly believe our elites are out of touch to the point of insanity.

This is a highly nationalistic point of view. It implies that a multiculture (or mono-cultural, if you take the stand of consumer culture is the thread linking the middle class of the world) is somehow a "bad" thing. That somehow racial purity is something to be achieved (I understand the next sentence aims at rectifying this...however it seems juxtaposed and the two sentences are seemingly contracdictory in tone).

If you are saying that consumer culture is borderless, I agree. However this in of itself is not a bad thing. Much of this came by the way of organic growth and demand. One could argue that this "organic" growth is really a reaction from Western cultural domination, but one can argue that it has led to more free speech and other liberties not previously seen in some nations. China, for example, is relatively more open due to its growing middle class...however I digress.

What they don't realize is that the world will go the way of Brazil. A hierarchy based on race will be the end result. Culture, as is in Brazil will be reduced to everyone attempting to step up the ladder of "whiteness" at which time they will be able to hide behind their gates and security.

Not really. Africa has made large strides in its middle class population. All the while Europeans continue to leave the continent en-masse. The United States, during the economic boom, finally reversed its trend of African Americans and other minorities not obtaining the middle class dream (the slide began in the 1980s into the 1990s...let up late 1990s till the 2000s...don't know the latest numbers).

It has been studied that places in the U.S. that are the most diverse, happen to be the most self-segregated. We are not coming closer together, we are falling farther apart. I really don't know where all of this is going to end, but it doesn't look good. One big reason is because the middle-class is being annihilated.

Not at all true. In fact my home town was voted one of the most diverse larger cities in the US. Also ranked among the lowest with residential segregation. The reason? It's a newer suburb outside an established diverse community. Also, the time it grew was during the 1990s. This was the great push for African Americans and Hispanics into suburban Riverside County, San Bernardino County, and the Antelope Valley.

In fact, immigration is growing at a faster pace in boomburgs (middle class, diverse, suburban communities).

Illegal immigrants are not good for any country. Order is always superior to chaos. The question then becomes. Do you believe the United States has become an established and mature nation with more than ample population. It's also important to ask yourself if you believe in borders, nation states and predominant culture/religion or not.

Religion, first off, shouldn't even be mentioned. The majority of illegal immigrants are entering into historically Catholic terriroty. The majority of illegal immigrants are Catholic. Regardless, Catholicism is a sect of Christianity. Also, we do not have any state sanctioned religion.

As for culture, we are all products of consumer culture. Increasingly, this is the world culture. We are defined by what we own. Christmas, the nation's largest and most celebrated holiday, is defined by shopping. The global middle class is rapidly following suit. Mass media, shared information, and consumerism...have created more similarities between nations than ever before.

Though I personally dislike the consumer aspect for more environmental reasons (also it may promote an oligarchal society...but this REALLY a stretch), I feel that the youth generation is finding commonality between different regions due to this. So I guess it's a mixed bag.

I am pretty sure that Mexico/Latin America, China, India, Phillipines etc, wouldn't want their countries experiencing rapid national, cultural or ethnic population shifts even over the next 100 years let alone 20 years. Look how all these immigrants who come here stand proud of their culture, language and that's in this country. Tell Korea that since their aging rapidly, that they need to let in millions of Filipinos to keep costs down for business and in the process give the Filipinos a chance for a better life. Along with this, tell the Koreans that they will have to start learning Tagalog to help them feel more comfortable. Korea/Phillipines or fill in the blanks for yourself. Most nations would go to war first. Nigerians in Argentina, NEVER!!

These countries are experiencing the same cultural shifts we are...Funny you should mention Nigerians in Argentina. I'm half Ivorian, my ex GF is full Ivorian. Our fantasy was to move to Buenos Aires. The fact of the matter is that we are increasingly becoming a society in which we have more commonalities. Older notions of hyper nationalism are incompatible with mass communication and a globalized economy.

The U.S. isn't a orgy of greed. It's a nation. We don't all have to agree. But that doesn't mean one group lets to dictate to all the others that they believe the members of their own group should be allowed to import more of their own (or cheap and close to slave-like labor) so they can feel more empowered. In any other scenario, the American people would look like a bunch of bafoons... Wait a minute...

However, in order to foster the middle class, we need to realize that exclusion of the poor will only harm and created a two tiered society...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2009, 06:15 AM
Yac
 
5,874 posts, read 6,290,826 times
I'd only like to remind everyone to read the topic again before posting a reply. Make sure what you post is on topic, please.
Yac.
__________________
Forum Rules
City-Data.com homepage
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2009, 06:21 AM
 
12,870 posts, read 12,772,010 times
Reputation: 4446
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Hmmm good points. BUT,
The american dream? Not our job nor our responsibility. They should have entered legally and then I would agree.. Never reward illegal behavior. It only encourages more.

It's not a reward. See, a reward implies no work. Work is involved to obtain this (my idea being obtaining a job for x number of years, or obtaining a post secondary degree/vocational training). The market is a bigger factor driving illegal immigration. Immigration rates have fallen due to the global recession. I am interested to see the trend during the Great Depression. Some sources agree that immigration in general dropped during the Great Depression as well.

Educational needs. Once again that is a burden they (Forced) upon us..

However, higher education means LESS of a burden in the long run. This has been confirmed by a UCSB study that cites that the state of California would stand to save money if it properly educates its residents. The rationale is that the more educated on is, typically, the higher the salary. Thus, less people on welfare and other state programs. Also, many illegal immigrants attend inner city schools. Many of these schools don't get the same dollar per pupil spending as in nicer suburban communities. Thus, by targeting and reducing benefits to illegals, it may impact those legal citizens/residents who live closest to the illegal immigrant community.

Exploitation. In this case they are willing partners. No different than any other relationship amoung criminals.

It is. Classic 3rd world exploitation case. Desperate situation, means desperate measures. Exploitation is not a two way street. Never. Willing implies there are other choices. Typically not for illegal immigrants.

ESL classes? For legals by all means. Illegals not only do not deserve them but should be denied.

Wouldn't this end one of the greatest complaints on this forum?

deportation. It is costly and all the more reason to put pressure on illegals to self deport by making life in the USA impossible for them.
Enforce the laws without exception. Secure the border and stop no one from going south. hammer those who hire, rent or lease to illegals. That would include Lowes shoppers who use illegals.
Not impossible at all.

However, we know not ALL, not even a MAJORITY would self deport. Yes it is impossible. It's 2,000 miles. Do we build a wall in sectors? San Diego taught us that illegal immigrants would thus move to further and further outposts. Do we have a standing army on the border? This may destabilize the situation. It could lead to violence, since it would be seen as an act of agression. Also, how many troops? Again it's 2,000 miles. How long would the troops be there? That would get costly QUICK! Okay, how do we deport?

We should have laws that take into consideration the current realities. I agree that we should go after those who hire illegal immigrants (Lowe's shoppers...really though? That's a bit extreme). However, I would require they pay a fine (X dollars per person), require the companies to sponsor them. A fine high enough to be prohibitive...

Having continued harsh barriers of entry legally will only
serve to perpetuate the black market of illegal immigration. Just like prohibition did for alcohol.
the modest good news for america is that as china labor costs grow, their work is now being outsourced to mexico, which will help to reduce the amount of illegal immigrants in the US.

this seems to be a good thing since this is an issue that our government is NOT willing to tackle.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2009, 06:49 AM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
60,086 posts, read 30,599,526 times
Reputation: 12815
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
I prefer to look at case studies, journals, and attend lectures/seminars. That's more the source...not prepackaged media. Also I ask my friends (two are obtaining advanced degrees in sociology). Umm..Michael Culter kind of sucks, sorry...

Like I said, your totally clueless!!

The middle class in the USA is going to the wayside.
Brought on by cheap labor of the illegal ailiens, so the USA can compete on a global market with China, India, Indonesia, and other slave labor 3rd world countries.

All that is going to do, is make us an equal to them. Impoverished 3rd world America.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2009, 06:53 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Why not have laws that benefits all persons in the nation? This will be MUCH better in the long run.
Because that isn't possible. Someone is going to be on the losing end and in this case I'd rather it be the illegal aliens rather than our own citizens. Aferall, this country belongs to our citizens, not illegal foreigners. Laws are in place also so that we don't become a morally bankrupt country run by those without any scruples because of their own selfish interests.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2009, 08:12 AM
 
492 posts, read 994,406 times
Reputation: 361
The middle class is shrinking because manufacturing jobs, assembly line jobs, office jobs, and technical jobs have been on the downside for decades. In the 50ís it took 100 men to build a car today no more that 7. Office automation has gotten rid of all kinds of clerical jobs. In addition other countries have absorbed whatever manufacturing jobs there was. The bottom line is competition and making a profit that is what business is all about. People have to realize that world competition is real, and there is no use of blaming on the undocumented.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2009, 08:22 AM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
60,086 posts, read 30,599,526 times
Reputation: 12815
Outsourcing our labor, is the reason our middle class is virtually gone.

Cheap imports have outsourced our manufacturing
Cheap labor in 3rd world nations, has outsourced the technical call centers, and imported to overstay visas.
Cheap manual labor has flooded the fast food industry, construction trades, and what little manufacturing we still do here. Where stolen ID's are the cause of 99% of ID theft. Lets take Mohawk Carpet Mills, in Dalton Georgia as an example.

What is left for the middle class?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2009, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjester View Post
The middle class is shrinking because manufacturing jobs, assembly line jobs, office jobs, and technical jobs have been on the downside for decades. In the 50ís it took 100 men to build a car today no more that 7. Office automation has gotten rid of all kinds of clerical jobs. In addition other countries have absorbed whatever manufacturing jobs there was. The bottom line is competition and making a profit that is what business is all about. People have to realize that world competition is real, and there is no use of blaming on the undocumented.
The world competition aspect I have some issue with admittedly; as for the illegal aliens.........they are parasites and need to be kicked out of the USA since their mere presence does drag down wages.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2009, 09:26 AM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
60,086 posts, read 30,599,526 times
Reputation: 12815
Illegal aliens kept the "going rate" in construction trades, stagnant for about 10 years, while the cost of living in the early to mid 90's skyrocketed.
From the late 90's the "going rates" have slowly back peddled to what they were in the 1970' and 80's.

Now, illegal aliens are threatening more than just California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. The rest of the country, is seeing what I have seen over the last 23 years. It is just accelerating so fast, now. It is a parasitic virus, spreading North. Costing more lives and grief, than any H1N1.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top