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Old 11-20-2009, 06:35 PM
 
26 posts, read 38,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
So you don't understand the analogies. The melting pot means that there is one culture we ALL assimilate to. Meaning that there is no distinctive cultures (ingredients) only one culture (ingredient). The salad bowl theory means that there distinctive groups within the whole (the salad itself). That the groups form the larger whole.

Melting pot theory was a justification of how WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) culture is superior and thus we should ALL assimilate to such.

The salad bowl model is essentially what we have. Both views do not take into consideration the fluidity of culture. However, if it came down to either or...we follow more the "salad bowl" model of assimilation...more an ode to functionalism school of thought.
Again, the salad bowl model is self-defeating. No country can survive clashing cultures. I'm sorry, but you see proof of this on a daily basis here in the U.S. If you aren't seeing it, then you must be in complete denial.

Another question: In Saudi Arabia, would the Saudi people be open to Americans immigrating there and maintaining the American way of life? Could women where shorts in public? Could women drive and work and be allowed to file for divorce? How about gays? How would gays manage in Saudi? Honestly, can you tell me that Saudi Arabia would be as accomodating to the "salad bowl" mentality that you seem to espouse so much?

Of course not. The point is, it's the double-standard again. Americans need to lay down and take it up the *** for daring to love and want to preserve our culture.
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:37 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,079,640 times
Reputation: 822
The problem with that is it is more complex then you are making it out. For one a quarter of illegals are not at all Hispanic. While some do make that conflation between "Mexican=illegal" many are keenly aware that there are illegals from Asia, Europe and Africa as well as from Latin America. As to speak only English complains I fail to see how this is racist or ethnocentric either. English is the lingua-franka of the United States and regardless of peoples ethnicity as a practical matter English needs to be spoken just to insure that communication is possible. It does not matter if you come to the US speaking Spanish, Swahili, or Cantonese, due to the size of the US, there needs to be a common language everyone can understand for utility sake without this it would be difficult the keep the country together.

Speak English ONLY...meaning ONLY English. Even when shopping with a person and you speak German. Many argue that it's somehow rude to speak German in your private conversation. This is ethnocentric.

As to compromises the "pro-illegal" folk as well as the "anti-illegal" folk each offer a compromise. Many of "pro-illegals" believe that the law is so malleable that it can survive being broken and/or ignored on a case by case basis. Their compromise is that laws are more like guidelines that should be broken on occasion. This is contrasted with the view of many "anti-illegal immigration" folks that a compromise already exists in the fact that while the law is the law...if one doesn't like it one does not like they law one can work to change it.

Not at all...but rather people realize that laws can be changed to reflect the changing society/circumstances. Many share a point of view in which laws somehow shouldn't or couldn't be changed to reflect the new reality. The whole "law is the law" mentality that most anti-illegal immigrant people have doesn't allow for change. In many polls, they prefer that the law not be changed.
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:42 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,079,640 times
Reputation: 822
Again, the salad bowl model is self-defeating. No country can survive clashing cultures. I'm sorry, but you see proof of this on a daily basis here in the U.S. If you aren't seeing it, then you must be in complete denial.

Or I actually studied it...meaning that you clearly don't understand the term, so let's move on.

Another question: In Saudi Arabia, would the Saudi people be open to Americans immigrating there and maintaining the American way of life? Could women where shorts in public? Could women drive and work and be allowed to file for divorce? How about gays? How would gays manage in Saudi? Honestly, can you tell me that Saudi Arabia would be as accomodating to the "salad bowl" mentality that you seem to espouse so much?

I lived in compound of Americans. My mom drove a bus. Yes, she drove. My brother spoke about the time he got accidently drunk at the Swiss Embassy (he was 13 and serving drinks). Our neighbor was openly gay in Riyadh.

Regardless, of what you don't really know concerning Riydadh or Jeddah, what occurs in another country has no consequence to the topic.

Of course not. The point is, it's the double-standard again. Americans need to lay down and take it up the *** for daring to love and want to preserve our culture.

Again you don't know the terms or much about these models. Just don't tire yourself out. Don't worry...
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:49 PM
 
Location: NC
10,005 posts, read 8,721,149 times
Reputation: 3062
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
The problem with that is it is more complex then you are making it out. For one a quarter of illegals are not at all Hispanic. While some do make that conflation between "Mexican=illegal" many are keenly aware that there are illegals from Asia, Europe and Africa as well as from Latin America. As to speak only English complains I fail to see how this is racist or ethnocentric either. English is the lingua-franka of the United States and regardless of peoples ethnicity as a practical matter English needs to be spoken just to insure that communication is possible. It does not matter if you come to the US speaking Spanish, Swahili, or Cantonese, due to the size of the US, there needs to be a common language everyone can understand for utility sake without this it would be difficult the keep the country together.

Speak English ONLY...meaning ONLY English. Even when shopping with a person and you speak German. Many argue that it's somehow rude to speak German in your private conversation. This is ethnocentric.

As to compromises the "pro-illegal" folk as well as the "anti-illegal" folk each offer a compromise. Many of "pro-illegals" believe that the law is so malleable that it can survive being broken and/or ignored on a case by case basis. Their compromise is that laws are more like guidelines that should be broken on occasion. This is contrasted with the view of many "anti-illegal immigration" folks that a compromise already exists in the fact that while the law is the law...if one doesn't like it one does not like they law one can work to change it.

Not at all...but rather people realize that laws can be changed to reflect the changing society/circumstances. Many share a point of view in which laws somehow shouldn't or couldn't be changed to reflect the new reality. The whole "law is the law" mentality that most anti-illegal immigrant people have doesn't allow for change. In many polls, they prefer that the law not be changed.
Some people do argue that about language, however that is a distinct minority of complaints on that language issue. The vast majority of complains I have read and problems in communication I have had are about people who come here not speaking English and never learn to speak English and start most public and business conversations with "[do you/please] speak (Spanish, Italian, Mandarin etc. fill in language)".

As to your point. If you ask most "anti-illegal" folks the blanket question
"Should laws be able to be changed and the constitution amended to reflect a changing society?" most will say yes. Now they may not want to change the law, but they would most likely agree that there should be a means to change the law if necessary. This is entirely different the "pro-illegal" perspective of if X person breaks the law, but had an excuse for doing so (as is the case with the vast majority if not all illegals) then that's fine.
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:50 PM
 
26 posts, read 38,532 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Again, the salad bowl model is self-defeating. No country can survive clashing cultures. I'm sorry, but you see proof of this on a daily basis here in the U.S. If you aren't seeing it, then you must be in complete denial.

Or I actually studied it...meaning that you clearly don't understand the term, so let's move on.

Another question: In Saudi Arabia, would the Saudi people be open to Americans immigrating there and maintaining the American way of life? Could women where shorts in public? Could women drive and work and be allowed to file for divorce? How about gays? How would gays manage in Saudi? Honestly, can you tell me that Saudi Arabia would be as accomodating to the "salad bowl" mentality that you seem to espouse so much?

I lived in compound of Americans. My mom drove a bus. Yes, she drove. My brother spoke about the time he got accidently drunk at the Swiss Embassy (he was 13 and serving drinks). Our neighbor was openly gay in Riyadh.

Regardless, of what you don't really know concerning Riydadh or Jeddah, what occurs in another country has no consequence to the topic.

Of course not. The point is, it's the double-standard again. Americans need to lay down and take it up the *** for daring to love and want to preserve our culture.

Again you don't know the terms or much about these models. Just don't tire yourself out. Don't worry...
You can't actually expect us to believe that a country like Saudi Arabia is a safe and welcoming haven for Americans and the western way of life?? Hah! Your so-called "compounds" of Americans sound like segregation to me.

You and I both know that there is NO way Saudi Arabia would embrace western culture the way Americans are expected to embrace Muslim culture. It's a hypocritical, double-standard, and you know it.
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:55 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,079,640 times
Reputation: 822
Some people do argue that about language, however that is a distinct minority of complaints on that language issue. The vast majority of complains I have read and problems in communication I have had are about people who come here not speaking English and never learn to speak English and start most public and business conversations with "speak (fill in language)".

Not really. Read even previous posts on this thread.

As to your point. If you ask most "anti-illegal" folks the blanket question
"Should laws be able to changed and the constitution amended to reflect a changing society?" most will say yes. Now they may not want to change the law, but they would most likely agree that there should be a means to change the law if necessary. This is entirely different the "pro-illegal" perspective of If X person breaks the law, but had a reasonable excuse for doing so, then that's fine.

If the new paradigm is that illegal immigration occurs due to economic factors and can be rectified with amnesty for those that have been here for X number years or a guest worker program...we've seen on this forum that most anti-illegal immigrant people have polled against both.

The "pro-illegal" camp simply says that we should change the laws as to decrease illegal immigration.

Most in the "anti-illegal" camp feel that walls and extreme defense is the answer. Not citing studies that have shown that walls push illegal immigration further and futher out of populated areas and doesn't decrease the flow, and how defense (in the military sense) is very costly.
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,633,862 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
So you don't understand the analogies. The melting pot means that there is one culture we ALL assimilate to. Meaning that there is no distinctive cultures (ingredients) only one culture (ingredient). The salad bowl theory means that there distinctive groups within the whole (the salad itself). That the groups form the larger whole.

Melting pot theory was a justification of how WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) culture is superior and thus we should ALL assimilate to such.

The salad bowl model is essentially what we have. Both views do not take into consideration the fluidity of culture. However, if it came down to either or...we follow more the "salad bowl" model of assimilation...more an ode to functionalism school of thought.
And what is so damn bad about WASP culture? Frankly; for First World societies-------it is the Gold Standard. If other people who live here in the USA do not like it----------they can leave. Note I am referring to green card holders/US citizens here. Illegals do not count and need to be expelled en masse.

Despite my heritage; I self identify as a WASP.
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Old 11-20-2009, 07:05 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,079,640 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by JA1961 View Post
You can't actually expect us to believe that a country like Saudi Arabia is a safe and welcoming haven for Americans and the western way of life?? Hah! Your so-called "compounds" of Americans sound like segregation to me.

You and I both know that there is NO way Saudi Arabia would embrace western culture the way Americans are expected to embrace Muslim culture. It's a hypocritical, double-standard, and you know it.
That's so far off topic, that's its honestly laughable. But okay, here it goes. In Saudi Arabia, they are in the midst of a cultural crossroads. Many in my generation (born the 1970s and 1980s) were used to a Western standard of living. Especially in the more urban centers of Riyadh and Jeddah. When I was young, there was approx 100,000 Americans, 50,000 Brits, 30,000 Frenchmen in the nation (Approx 200,000-300,000 total Westerners in a country with a population of 13 million people).

It was during the oil boom years. Many in the kingdom predicted great social changes that MAY bring about a revolution when my generation came of age (now).

Many in generation are VERY western due to the exposure and wealth they grew up.

However, many are extremist due to the exploitation and settler mentality that came with with the wealth.

It's a double edged sword.

There were MANY upper middle class Saudi citizens in the compounds. They were "American" compounds, since the majority of people were American. They were better suited to American taste (tract homes in a master planned community).

Again the point isn't Saudi Arabia, though...it's America. In all this, though, it illustrates how consumer culture is really bringing about a global culture.
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Old 11-20-2009, 07:06 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,619,457 times
Reputation: 2983
I wouldn't particularly object if we were a "Salad Bowl", wnich in many ways, we are, of course. And it's just an analogy, anyway. But to have a 'Salad Bowl', you'd have to have a basic, mutual, acceptable concept of what a SALAD actually is...there are "good" ingredients for a Salad, too numerous to mention here...but few people would want to include chocolate syrup...or raw liver....or ice cream....or similar things, in a salad. And that's where the analogy falls short. The CONCEPT of what IS..and is NOT, a "SALAD" is analogous to out basic, secular Western culture; this provides the framework of freedom and individual liberty un which all of us "ingredients" are able to live in harmony..(whether we choose to 'blend' or not).

A Salad Bowl is a fine thing...but it has its limits. Those limits are what we call our American 'culture'. Culture, in this respect, denotes a way of life, not the petty details such as art, music, or even foreign languages. Those things will work, as long as the basic framework holds. Take away that 'base' of mutual understanding, and the system becomes unsustainable.

Analogies, though, do have their limits..and we're not REALLY a melting pot, NOR are we REALLY a salad....we're a unique, special society....one that depends upon our cooperation for its continued survival. Since we don't have a common race, nor a common religion, nor a common ethnicity, we, more than MOST societies, need a common culture, including a common language. Take THAT away, and our prospects grow increasingly dim...
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Old 11-20-2009, 07:07 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,079,640 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
And what is so damn bad about WASP culture? Frankly; for First World societies-------it is the Gold Standard. If other people who live here in the USA do not like it----------they can leave. Note I am referring to green card holders/US citizens here. Illegals do not count and need to be expelled en masse.

Despite my heritage; I self identify as a WASP.
You can self identify yourself as a dog, doesn't make you one though...
Regardless, I never said anything bad about WASPs. My grandfather's family has been here since def. since the 1750s...but may be able to be traced to the Abigail in 1637. If anything I'm a quarter WASP in the true sense of the term.

However, there is something wrong with telling people one culture is better than another.
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