U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-19-2009, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,891 posts, read 12,247,801 times
Reputation: 2520

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
I disagree.
Care to explain farther?
Just because in the US, in alot of cases illegal immigration tends to be associated with Mexicans/Hispanics and vice-versa. If a person sees a Hispanic person speaking Spanish in public and labels them an illegal immigrant without having any knowledge of their immigration status for instance, or the common assumption that a Mexican/Hispanic who illegally crosses the border in the United States is uneducated. Also, the association with Mexicans/Hispanics in the US being illegal immigrants and the hatred/intolerance of that group of people as a result fits most descriptions of the word "racism" in my dictionary.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-19-2009, 01:35 PM
 
26 posts, read 38,519 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan. View Post
Because it's never just about illegal immigration with many people. For example, I'm on your side. I oppose illegal immigration 100%. I think we should require proficiency in English to become a citizen. I think drivers license and voting should be in English. However, I've noticed the anti-illegal immigration crowd are also disturbed by petty things like people speaking Spanish amongst themselves publicly. I mean what does that have to do with illegal immigration? So now people are not allowed to speak a foreign language amongst themselves even if they are here legally and can speak English but choose to speak Spanish amongst themselves? I'm sorry but there is no logical reason to ask for that unless you are xenophobic and bigoted.
How do you draw the conclusion that wishing to hear English spoken in the U.S. is racist? Isn't that stretching things a bit?

There is something very disconcerting about hearing Spanish spoken around you all the time. It makes many Americans feel uncomfortable, as if they are no longer in the U.S., and no longer able to communicate with their fellow citizens. These aren't racist feelings. These feelings result from the American culture becoming divided and unrecognizable. Call it what you may, but it is very human and very natural for Americans to reject seeing their culture, language, traditions, and heritage being changed in the rampant way that illegal aliens do. I firmly believe these are normal feelings, and racism has nothing to do with it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2009, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,878,727 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
Just because in the US, in alot of cases illegal immigration tends to be associated with Mexicans/Hispanics and vice-versa. If a person sees a Hispanic person speaking Spanish in public and labels them an illegal immigrant without having any knowledge of their immigration status for instance, or the common assumption that a Mexican/Hispanic who illegally crosses the border in the United States is uneducated. Also, the association with Mexicans/Hispanics in the US being illegal immigrants and the hatred/intolerance of that group of people as a result fits most descriptions of the word "racism" in my dictionary.
Behind every myth, every stereotype is a grain of truth.
In this case both sides.
Hispanics are the primary target because well gee they are 75% of the problem. Mexicans are targeted because they are the majority of illegal hispanics. In this case more than a single grain of truth.
Add to this the fact that it is the hispanic community that is pushing the hardest to legalize the status of illegals.
Add to this the fact that the hispanic community as a whole is largly silent on the evils of illegal immigration.
75% of 12 million is 9 million. Where are they hiding? Who is facilitating them?
I myself make none of the assumptions you described. That is unless I see 2 or 3 families living in a single dwelling. Most legal citizens don't and won't exist in such an enviroment. Illegals however are well known for this.
How many of those from mexico who crossed the border illegally are well educated? What % would you guess? I don't know. I am guessing less than 10%.
No me I am against any and all illegals. I don't care what country they come from or even why. I care that they have no respect for our rights or laws.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2009, 01:44 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive, but they do tend to accompany each other in certain cases.
I certainly agree with this. My 'rule of thumb' has always been that 50% of anti-illegals....and 70% of pro-illegals...are in this argument MOSTLY for reasons of racial / ethnic sentiments. Change the RACE of the illegals, and both sides would have a big change in their sentiments...

Illegal immigration should not be a 'racial' issue...it's a matter of legality, national soveriegnty, and 'trespass'. But there IS a peripheral 'racial' angle, if you insist....and that is what some people concentrate on.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2009, 02:04 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by JA1961 View Post
How do you draw the conclusion that wishing to hear English spoken in the U.S. is racist? Isn't that stretching things a bit?

There is something very disconcerting about hearing Spanish spoken around you all the time. It makes many Americans feel uncomfortable, as if they are no longer in the U.S., and no longer able to communicate with their fellow citizens. These aren't racist feelings. These feelings result from the American culture becoming divided and unrecognizable. Call it what you may, but it is very human and very natural for Americans to reject seeing their culture, language, traditions, and heritage being changed in the rampant way that illegal aliens do. I firmly believe these are normal feelings, and racism has nothing to do with it.
I agree. Although I speak Spanish myself, it is NOT the language of 'mainstream America'. Speaking a 'foreign' language of any kind in public, in America, among those who may NOT speak it, when you yourself are capable of English, is not 'wrong'...is not illegal...and should not be forbidden. But it CAN irritate, it CAN cause division, and it CAN be looked at as 'showing off' and 'calling attention to yourself'. No law against THAT, of course...but that's the way it works.

Many years ago, in the days of 'common sense', my Spanish-speaking Mother-in-Law had a 'rule'...(she had LOTS of rules). And one rule was, "it's rude to speak Spanish, in front of people who don't". That was a LONG time ago, and she has since passed away...but I believe it's still true..it's not WRONG, but it's RUDE...just like loud cell-phone convesrations in public, loud 'shouting matches', bragging, and intimate conversations in front of strangers are rude...not illegal; not to be 'banned'..but certainly rude.

Foreign travelers are not expected to know the local language...but permanent residents are....and MOST people can tell the difference. Makes sense to me...though I realize many will differ..and I have no real defense, except to say it's rude. It should NOT be made illegal, but those who do it should be aware that they're irritating others. If that's OK with them, then of course, there's no reason to change. If, on the other hand, one wishes not to irritate those around him, a good way to do so is try to refrain from irritating behavior. If you know English, use it. If you have normal hearing, don't shout. And if you want to engage in a cell-phone argument, do it outdoors...not in a packed waiting room. And PLEASE...get rid of those stupid bumper stickers. I don't CARE if your other car is a Porsche...and the fact that you'd "rather be skiing" doesn't impress me one bit...it's nothing more than bragging. Grow up.

But none of these things should be forbidden...they should be matters of common courtesy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2009, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,891 posts, read 12,247,801 times
Reputation: 2520
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Behind every myth, every stereotype is a grain of truth.
In this case both sides.
Hispanics are the primary target because well gee they are 75% of the problem. Mexicans are targeted because they are the majority of illegal hispanics. In this case more than a single grain of truth.
Add to this the fact that it is the hispanic community that is pushing the hardest to legalize the status of illegals.
Add to this the fact that the hispanic community as a whole is largly silent on the evils of illegal immigration.
75% of 12 million is 9 million. Where are they hiding? Who is facilitating them?
I myself make none of the assumptions you described. That is unless I see 2 or 3 families living in a single dwelling. Most legal citizens don't and won't exist in such an enviroment. Illegals however are well known for this.
How many of those from mexico who crossed the border illegally are well educated? What % would you guess? I don't know. I am guessing less than 10%.
No me I am against any and all illegals. I don't care what country they come from or even why. I care that they have no respect for our rights or laws.
I agree with everything you're saying and I'm not at all trying to accuse anyone of being racist. I've just noticed that from my general observations, (whether in this message board or in my every day life) I have seen instances where the illegal immigration topic was discussed in a manner that could be looked upon as racist in nature.

The fact that they aren't mutually exclusive means that I believe the illegal immigration topic can be, and is regularly discussed in a way that has no racial sentiments.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2009, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,878,727 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
I agree with everything you're saying and I'm not at all trying to accuse anyone of being racist. I've just noticed that from my general observations, (whether in this message board or in my every day life) I have seen instances where the illegal immigration topic was discussed in a manner that could be looked upon as racist in nature.

The fact that they aren't mutually exclusive means that I believe the illegal immigration topic can be, and is regularly discussed in a way that has no racial sentiments.
Agreed. Unfortunately those who advocate for amnesty and such are determined to lable anyone who opposes them as racists or xenophobes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2009, 03:08 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,144,640 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan. View Post
Because it's never just about illegal immigration with many people. For example, I'm on your side. I oppose illegal immigration 100%. I think we should require proficiency in English to become a citizen. I think drivers license and voting should be in English. However, I've noticed the anti-illegal immigration crowd are also disturbed by petty things like people speaking Spanish amongst themselves publicly. I mean what does that have to do with illegal immigration? So now people are not allowed to speak a foreign language amongst themselves even if they are here legally and can speak English but choose to speak Spanish amongst themselves? I'm sorry but there is no logical reason to ask for that unless you are xenophobic and bigoted.

Also, you hear stupid reasons about assimilation. Now even if people are here legally, and speak and read fluent English, they are being bad if they don't live exactly like White Americans or "assimilate" Again, what does this have to do with legal immigration status and English proficiency? This is just further proof that many of the anti-illegal immigration enthusiasts go beyond demanding legal immigration and English skills status. A lot of them are racist and avoid admitting their true feelings and opinions and circumvent that by demanding petty things like "assimilation" and "don't speak Spanish where I can hear it"....it's obvious what their intentions and feelings are. They don't want just legal immigration and English proficiency, they want you to act exactly like them otherwise they aren't American-enought. That's racist! I'm all for protecting our borders, demanding English proficiency and legal immigration but I don't support racism and bigotry and unfortunately a lot of these anti-illegal immigration enthusiasts are racist.
On the flip side there are many more racists among the pro-illegals then there is among the anti-illegals. Most who advocate for them share the same ethnicity and that is why they want amnesty for them. They would have a fit though if these illegals were mostly white, asian, black or some other non-hispanic ethnicitiy. Most pro-illegals are using illegal immigration to turn our country into another hispanic country by sheer numbers and to gain poltical power in this country. How racist is that? If I were to advocate for millions of anglos to invade Mexico illegally so we could turn it into a non-hispanic country how would the pro-illegals or the Mexicans in Mexico feel about that? No need to answer because we know the answer. Their views are not only racist but hypocritical. Bet they wouldn't be called bigots or xenophones though for wanting to protect their country and its culture from foreign invasion. Can we say "double standard"?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2009, 03:11 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
60,059 posts, read 30,586,259 times
Reputation: 12810
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
Just because in the US, in alot of cases illegal immigration tends to be associated with Mexicans/Hispanics and vice-versa. If a person sees a Hispanic person speaking Spanish in public and labels them an illegal immigrant without having any knowledge of their immigration status for instance, or the common assumption that a Mexican/Hispanic who illegally crosses the border in the United States is uneducated. Also, the association with Mexicans/Hispanics in the US being illegal immigrants and the hatred/intolerance of that group of people as a result fits most descriptions of the word "racism" in my dictionary.

I disagree!

Got any documentation to back your opinion?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2009, 03:14 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,891 posts, read 12,247,801 times
Reputation: 2520
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
I disagree!

Got any documentation to back your opinion?
If I had a few hours to waste I could wade through all the posts in this forum and pull out excerpts that would fall under those instances I described but unforunately do not have the time to do that right now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top