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Old 12-03-2009, 05:57 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
OK..still friends. However, I have to ask...WHY is it, do you suppose, that these diverse people you mention (above), manage to 'get along' here in the US, when they might NOT have gotten along elsewhere? It's not the water; it's not the air; it's not the climate. Must be 'the system', it seems to me....and that system was not designed by YOUR ancestors, nor by mine...nor by Mr. Herrera's....and he and I both recognize that fact, and both Mr. Herrera, and I....(and I believe you, too, and all those diverse folks you mention) are now able to live peacefully and happily here, because of that 'system' that was invented and made into law....by a certain group of "you-know-who", whose language HAPPENED to be English. WHY this works, I don't know...but it does, and Mr. Herrera recognizes that, and so do I, and I believe, so do you. MY ancestors certainly never came up with a 'system' like this, but I'm glad someone did.


The reason is economics actually. The system really started during hte 1600s with Descartes, Hobbes, Locke, and Hume. Not to mention Spinoza (though more on religion, his thoughts were consistent to the times). This time period with philosphers all over Europe led to US, Republican France, Haiti (a tad later, but the same premise), and the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth...among others. So as you can see, our foundings were not uniquely Anglo. Other cultures had the same idea.

What's interesting to note is that the idea of Hispanic culture being non-Western is a VERY new construct. This came with the neocolonist attitude in the 1800s. Which is why the enlightenment also touched the Latin American independence movement. The same principles and philosphies used to justify the United State's independence were used to justify Latin America's independence.

AS for the food, as I said, I don't care. I can eat any kind of food I want...and often do. So do you. But FOOD isn't what I'm referring to in speaking of basic culture. Our basic culture of 'openness' and inclusiveness is what makes it possible for you and I to be ourselves, and not worry about being killed or our homes being burned down because we're 'different'.

Your idea of lack of openness of other cultures is VERY flawed. MOST cultures and nations are quite open. Ours nation being an "open" nation is also relatively new. For much of our existence we killed native Americans. We had slaves. We didn't allow Hispanics and Asians the ability to live where they wanted. We had internment camps for Asians. Some people were worried about "being killed or our (their) homes being burned down because they were different".

Thanks for your posts, friend...
Funny because Judge Leander Perez (a Hispanic) was allowed to live in a 'White' enclave in Jim Crow Louisiana------------and, was a member of the White Citizens Council.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
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Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
What is American culture? What defines American culture. For example let's define "French. If you are Breton, from Brittany, you have a pillgrimage (Tro Breizh), mostly Roman Catholic, and speak Breton. There is a distinctive architecture than that of the rest of France. If you were from the south, say from Province, you would speak Catalan, also be Roman Catholic, and have more in common with the Spanish than Parisians. If you are from Lorraine, you might speak German, be Protestant, eat brats, and generally seem more German than French. America has several cultures, just like France and other countries in the world.

There may be an "American" culture, but it is one of many.
It’s interesting that you can delineate culture as it applies to other countries. Yet, you believe the U.S. has no distinct culture. Rather, we are the lone country comprised of multiple cultures, all having equal status. In other words, the U.S. is merely a cultural free-for-all; a country in which all foreigners are welcome to live here without being expected to conform to our established norms. After all, if there is no “real” culture, there is no need for assimilation. Right?

The fact that so many pro-illegals are hell-bent on multiculturalism rather than “unity” speaks volumes. Actually, I don’t believe pro-ilegals support multiculturalism. Rather, you are advocating for biculturalism under the guise of multiculturalism. You want one English-speaking culture, and one Spanish-speaking culture, period.

Without a common language there can be no unity. How can we be expected to understand, let alone embrace another culture, if we can’t even communicate? Now, we have a melting post consisting of U.S. citizens and legal immigrants, and a separate and distinct pot primarily consisting of Spanish-speaking illegal aliens. Only nativists oppose this “new” America.

This so-called multicultural U.S. only emerged in response to having millions of Spanish-speaking peasants who are unable and/or unwilling to conform to the culture of this country; which, by the way, includes the English language. Yes, many past immigrants retained their language and ethnic cuisine, but they have always added to a pot to be shared by ALL, and they embraced the English language as being a requisite for their new lives as “Americans.” We cannot remain the “United” States, if we become a balkanized nation. Frankly, who would want to live here under those circumstances?

Sadly, in your quest to garner support for illegal immigration, you fail to realize the same biculturalism you espouse, will ultimately lead to the demise of the “America” you claim to love, and the world yearns to experience. We now have an insidious form of political correctness which dictates that anything goes. There is no right, and there is no wrong; and all who oppose illegal immigration are racists, xenophobes, right-wing fanatics, close-minded, ignorant, hateful, and sundry other terms intended to demean and marginalize.

As macmeal eloquently expressed, the essence of this country, and the attraction for foreigners, are our freedoms, our laws, and our mores. Unfortunately, they are all being systematically eroded for the sake of cheap illegal labor.

Rather than asking, "What is American culture?" Perhaps you should think of how your life would differ in Saudi Arabia, China, N. Korea, Sudan, etc., etc., etc. What freedoms would you lose? What laws and beliefs would be forced upon you? Perhaps then, you will understand what is meant by the “American culture” we value. The culture of a country is much more than architecture, food, and language. The American culture has been determined by the hearts and souls of its citizens. We will not allow our culture to be dictated by an invasion of Spanish-speaking illegal aliens. Not by a long shot.
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:03 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,144,640 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
It’s interesting that you can delineate culture as it applies to other countries. Yet, you believe the U.S. has no distinct culture. Rather, we are the lone country comprised of multiple cultures, all having equal status. In other words, the U.S. is merely a cultural free-for-all; a country in which all foreigners are welcome to live here without being expected to conform to our established norms. After all, if there is no “real” culture, there is no need for assimilation. Right?

The fact that so many pro-illegals are hell-bent on multiculturalism rather than “unity” speaks volumes. Actually, I don’t believe pro-ilegals support multiculturalism. Rather, you are advocating for biculturalism under the guise of multiculturalism. You want one English-speaking culture, and one Spanish-speaking culture, period.

Without a common language there can be no unity. How can we be expected to understand, let alone embrace another culture, if we can’t even communicate? Now, we have a melting post consisting of U.S. citizens and legal immigrants, and a separate and distinct pot primarily consisting of Spanish-speaking illegal aliens. Only nativists oppose this “new” America.

This so-called multicultural U.S. only emerged in response to having millions of Spanish-speaking peasants who are unable and/or unwilling to conform to the culture of this country; which, by the way, includes the English language. Yes, many past immigrants retained their language and ethnic cuisine, but they have always added to a pot to be shared by ALL, and they embraced the English language as being a requisite for their new lives as “Americans.” We cannot remain the “United” States, if we become a balkanized nation. Frankly, who would want to live here under those circumstances?

Sadly, in your quest to garner support for illegal immigration, you fail to realize the same biculturalism you espouse, will ultimately lead to the demise of the “America” you claim to love, and the world yearns to experience. We now have an insidious form of political correctness which dictates that anything goes. There is no right, and there is no wrong; and all who oppose illegal immigration are racists, xenophobes, right-wing fanatics, close-minded, ignorant, hateful, and sundry other terms intended to demean and marginalize.

As macmeal eloquently expressed, the essence of this country, and the attraction for foreigners, are our freedoms, our laws, and our mores. Unfortunately, they are all being systematically eroded for the sake of cheap illegal labor.

Rather than asking, "What is American culture?" Perhaps you should think of how your life would differ in Saudi Arabia, China, N. Korea, Sudan, etc., etc., etc. What freedoms would you lose? What laws and beliefs would be forced upon you? Perhaps then, you will understand what is meant by the “American culture” we value. The culture of a country is much more than architecture, food, and language. The American culture has been determined by the hearts and souls of its citizens. We will not allow our culture to be dictated by an invasion of Spanish-speaking illegal aliens. Not by a long shot.
You absolutely nailed it, Benicar! I am in awe of your abiltiy to express the situation with such finesse and truthfullness!!!
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
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Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
You absolutely nailed it, Benicar! I am in awe of your abiltiy to express the situation with such finesse and truthfullness!!!
Thanks.
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Old 12-03-2009, 11:34 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,327 times
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
One unifying factor here in the USA is not only the English language but; that legal immigrants adopt their ancestral culture to our dominant WASP one-------------not the other way around*. Which includes quite a few Latinos coming out against illegal immigration because it is very insulting to those Hispanic folks who played by the rules.

*I am not referring to certain types of food, music, dress etc. but, the Rule of Law in particular.
If really want to understand Rule of Law, you need to know it's history. Rule of law, if you go FAR back is not a Western concept. It stems from Mesopotamia (the craddle of civilization). As trading and migration spread further west, Greece adopted this system...then the Romans...later Renaissance secular governments...then all the way up to Age of Enlightenment (which is the basis of US philosophy). Granted, MANY changes occurred, but again it's not a uniquely American ideal.
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Old 12-03-2009, 01:08 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,327 times
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It’s interesting that you can delineate culture as it applies to other countries. Yet, you believe the U.S. has no distinct culture. Rather, we are the lone country comprised of multiple cultures, all having equal status. In other words, the U.S. is merely a cultural free-for-all; a country in which all foreigners are welcome to live here without being expected to conform to our established norms. After all, if there is no “real” culture, there is no need for assimilation. Right?

The example I made proved that we are not "the lone country" with many cultures. America has many diverse communities that are uniquely American. Meaning your argument is simply too simplistic. What's more American than the Amish (a group of people that aren't consumed with mass consumerism, and many are German speaking). Yet, this "American" group doesn't fit the stereotype. What about liberal San Francisco residents into tree-hugging, wine drinking, and pot smoking. Sure they speak English, but they don't share many of the same values as the suburban housewife in Minnesota. There are many communities in the US. There are over 300 million people living in the US. The US spans the entire width of the North American continent. Of course there are multiple cultures, sub cultures, etc. living inside of it.

The fact that so many pro-illegals are hell-bent on multiculturalism rather than “unity” speaks volumes. Actually, I don’t believe pro-ilegals support multiculturalism. Rather, you are advocating for biculturalism under the guise of multiculturalism. You want one English-speaking culture, and one Spanish-speaking culture, period.

Again, you're wrong. We want unity via tolerance. Not via homogeny. I speak French, I'm West African, German, Irish, and actually a quarter "Anglo" (from the 1700s or so was when the first documented Quaker with the last name Freeman was written, however, the first man with the last name Freeman was in 1637. The family lore goes that the Mass Bay Colony Freemans and the Penn. Freemans split at around the 1700s resulting in the Penn. Freemans becoming Quakers). Why would I want biculturalism only?

Without a common language there can be no unity. How can we be expected to understand, let alone embrace another culture, if we can’t even communicate? Now, we have a melting post consisting of U.S. citizens and legal immigrants, and a separate and distinct pot primarily consisting of Spanish-speaking illegal aliens. Only nativists oppose this “new” America.

I encourage people to learn English, but not to forget their language or feel that they shouldn't speak it. We've been a nation of distinct groups...my family in the 1700s proved that with the split between Quakers and the original Pilgrim settlers. Small, but def. enough to split a family in two and two VERY distinct groups in their own right. Later we had more distinct groups entering. This is not to say that the groups didn't change. They did, but society around them changed as well. However, many groups retained their identity and cultural norms.

This so-called multicultural U.S. only emerged in response to having millions of Spanish-speaking peasants who are unable and/or unwilling to conform to the culture of this country; which, by the way, includes the English language. Yes, many past immigrants retained their language and ethnic cuisine, but they have always added to a pot to be shared by ALL, and they embraced the English language as being a requisite for their new lives as “Americans.” We cannot remain the “United” States, if we become a balkanized nation. Frankly, who would want to live here under those circumstances?

Again, it emerged really in the 1800s with the great migration to the US. The modern argument is really a reiteration of the Know Nothing party of the 1800s. The different groups did change, yes. But society changed as well. These groups still retained much of their traditions.

The death of these traditions is not due to assimilation, but more due to the rise of consumer culture and mass. Which is not to say that mass consumerism and mass in itself is bad. Worldwide, we are unified under the idea of spending and information. This is why China is adopting the "spend more" ethos and why Africa is the world's fastest growing cell phone market. The world is shrinking in this regard, but that's a different topic altogether (has a bearing on this, but don't want to continue on).

People toss about the word Balkanization without even knowing the true context of the word. We aren't a nation occupied being forced under one culture (Serbian dominance in an unpopular communist regime).

Sadly, in your quest to garner support for illegal immigration, you fail to realize the same biculturalism you espouse, will ultimately lead to the demise of the “America” you claim to love, and the world yearns to experience. We now have an insidious form of political correctness which dictates that anything goes. There is no right, and there is no wrong; and all who oppose illegal immigration are racists, xenophobes, right-wing fanatics, close-minded, ignorant, hateful, and sundry other terms intended to demean and marginalize.

The demise of America would come about just like the same way it did with the Balkans; rampant nationalism with little regard to the general public.

As macmeal eloquently expressed, the essence of this country, and the attraction for foreigners, are our freedoms, our laws, and our mores. Unfortunately, they are all being systematically eroded for the sake of cheap illegal labor.

Not eroded by the 2-3% of the population, but rather by those who decide not to look at the larger structural problems and try to fix it. Instead they look at non-existent problems and pander it to people who believe we will end up fragmented. Meaning people who are "afraid" of the other. Instead of inclusion, these people feel threatened. Instead of looking at historical models and current trends they rather rely on very few selected interactions to base their judgement on.

Rather than asking, "What is American culture?" Perhaps you should think of how your life would differ in Saudi Arabia, China, N. Korea, Sudan, etc., etc., etc. What freedoms would you lose? What laws and beliefs would be forced upon you? Perhaps then, you will understand what is meant by the “American culture” we value. The culture of a country is much more than architecture, food, and language. The American culture has been determined by the hearts and souls of its citizens. We will not allow our culture to be dictated by an invasion of Spanish-speaking illegal aliens. Not by a long shot.

Actually having lived in Saudi Arabia, our lives were better as expats. Having been to Sudan, if you are upper middle class in Khartoum, it's not wholly different. My roomate's family lived in suburban Shanghai. I've been to Kowloon. And frankly, again, the rise of the global economy and global media really makes things shrink. The global middle class is really kind of uniformed in its values. That's my point is that maybe what you consider unique to America is not.

National laws are not the same as culture. Arabs in America share the same culture as those in the Middle East, but different national laws. Chinese immigrants in America share a common culture with those back in China, but again...different national laws. Granted, laws may influence culture (and vice-versa), but confusing the two (stating that the two are one in the same) is well, incorrect.
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Old 12-03-2009, 01:09 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,327 times
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Funny because Judge Leander Perez (a Hispanic) was allowed to live in a 'White' enclave in Jim Crow Louisiana------------and, was a member of the White Citizens Council.
Some people passed...this doesn't really prove anything.
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Old 12-03-2009, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
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Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Some people passed...this doesn't really prove anything.
Well; some Hispanics are indeed White----------to the point that groups known today for White supremacy have some Spanish named members. Hells Angels, Spanish Nazi's, and a few others come to mind.

As it is: on a genetic level; Spaniards are closer to Brits, Irish, etc. than to most Mexicans.
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Old 12-03-2009, 02:51 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,327 times
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Well; some Hispanics are indeed White----------to the point that groups known today for White supremacy have some Spanish named members. Hells Angels, Spanish Nazi's, and a few others come to mind.

As it is: on a genetic level; Spaniards are closer to Brits, Irish, etc. than to most Mexicans.
Some people "passed"...again it doesn't negate discrimination.
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Old 12-03-2009, 03:20 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
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Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
You absolutely nailed it, Benicar! I am in awe of your abiltiy to express the situation with such finesse and truthfullness!!!
I agree...absolutely eloquent. Well said !!
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