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Old 12-03-2009, 03:32 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,799 posts, read 30,044,409 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
It’s interesting that you can delineate culture as it applies to other countries. Yet, you believe the U.S. has no distinct culture. Rather, we are the lone country comprised of multiple cultures, all having equal status. In other words, the U.S. is merely a cultural free-for-all; a country in which all foreigners are welcome to live here without being expected to conform to our established norms. After all, if there is no “real” culture, there is no need for assimilation. Right?

The fact that so many pro-illegals are hell-bent on multiculturalism rather than “unity” speaks volumes. Actually, I don’t believe pro-ilegals support multiculturalism. Rather, you are advocating for biculturalism under the guise of multiculturalism. You want one English-speaking culture, and one Spanish-speaking culture, period.

Without a common language there can be no unity. How can we be expected to understand, let alone embrace another culture, if we can’t even communicate? Now, we have a melting post consisting of U.S. citizens and legal immigrants, and a separate and distinct pot primarily consisting of Spanish-speaking illegal aliens. Only nativists oppose this “new” America.

This so-called multicultural U.S. only emerged in response to having millions of Spanish-speaking peasants who are unable and/or unwilling to conform to the culture of this country; which, by the way, includes the English language. Yes, many past immigrants retained their language and ethnic cuisine, but they have always added to a pot to be shared by ALL, and they embraced the English language as being a requisite for their new lives as “Americans.” We cannot remain the “United” States, if we become a balkanized nation. Frankly, who would want to live here under those circumstances?

Sadly, in your quest to garner support for illegal immigration, you fail to realize the same biculturalism you espouse, will ultimately lead to the demise of the “America” you claim to love, and the world yearns to experience. We now have an insidious form of political correctness which dictates that anything goes. There is no right, and there is no wrong; and all who oppose illegal immigration are racists, xenophobes, right-wing fanatics, close-minded, ignorant, hateful, and sundry other terms intended to demean and marginalize.

As macmeal eloquently expressed, the essence of this country, and the attraction for foreigners, are our freedoms, our laws, and our mores. Unfortunately, they are all being systematically eroded for the sake of cheap illegal labor.

Rather than asking, "What is American culture?" Perhaps you should think of how your life would differ in Saudi Arabia, China, N. Korea, Sudan, etc., etc., etc. What freedoms would you lose? What laws and beliefs would be forced upon you? Perhaps then, you will understand what is meant by the “American culture” we value. The culture of a country is much more than architecture, food, and language. The American culture has been determined by the hearts and souls of its citizens. We will not allow our culture to be dictated by an invasion of Spanish-speaking illegal aliens. Not by a long shot.
This was so spectacular I had to quote it one more time
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Old 12-03-2009, 03:49 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
This was so spectacular I had to quote it one more time
I certainly agree. However, I'm sure we'll all soon be told that life in Saudi Arabia, China, North Korea, and Sudan. etc etc, are all pretty much just like life in the USA....since all cultures are equivalent....(while at the same time, 'cultures' have no negative effects, anyway); and in the case of those few instances of life there being in any way 'worse' than it is here ?....these can be easily explained in terms of socio-economic factors, inequality of access to wealth, the lingering effects of Western colonialism, our myopic unwillingness to see things from the perspective of others, and our general provincialism and inability to see 'the big picture'. We don't understand these things, as we both know.....but you can rest assured that there are those who do...and I have no doubt we'll all be 'straightened out' soon.
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Old 12-03-2009, 04:48 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I certainly agree. However, I'm sure we'll all soon be told that life in Saudi Arabia, China, North Korea, and Sudan. etc etc, are all pretty much just like life in the USA....since all cultures are equivalent....(while at the same time, 'cultures' have no negative effects, anyway); and in the case of those few instances of life there being in any way 'worse' than it is here ?....these can be easily explained in terms of socio-economic factors, inequality of access to wealth, the lingering effects of Western colonialism, our myopic unwillingness to see things from the perspective of others, and our general provincialism and inability to see 'the big picture'. We don't understand these things, as we both know.....but you can rest assured that there are those who do...and I have no doubt we'll all be 'straightened out' soon.
Lol, I am sure your are right, macmeal. I am doing my best to ignore the nonsense that is spouted about our "non-existant" basic culture.
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Old 12-03-2009, 06:49 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
The example I made proved that we are not "the lone country" with many cultures. America has many diverse communities that are uniquely American. Meaning your argument is simply too simplistic. What's more American than the Amish (a group of people that aren't consumed with mass consumerism, and many are German speaking). Yet, this "American" group doesn't fit the stereotype. What about liberal San Francisco residents into tree-hugging, wine drinking, and pot smoking. Sure they speak English, but they don't share many of the same values as the suburban housewife in Minnesota. There are many communities in the US. There are over 300 million people living in the US. The US spans the entire width of the North American continent. Of course there are multiple cultures, sub cultures, etc. living inside of it.
We are all unique individuals. As such, we have diverse personalities. How on earth does that negate a dominant American culture? Some people drink, use drugs, and cheat on spouses; while others don’t. Does that indicate they are from different cultures? Of course not.

Again, you're wrong. We want unity via tolerance. Not via homogeny. I speak French, I'm West African, German, Irish, and actually a quarter "Anglo" (from the 1700s or so was when the first documented Quaker with the last name Freeman was written, however, the first man with the last name Freeman was in 1637. The family lore goes that the Mass Bay Colony Freemans and the Penn. Freemans split at around the 1700s resulting in the Penn. Freemans becoming Quakers). Why would I want biculturalism only?

Unity via tolerance? Tolerance of what? If you are referring to illegal immigration, forget it.

I encourage people to learn English, but not to forget their language or feel that they shouldn't speak it. We've been a nation of distinct groups...my family in the 1700s proved that with the split between Quakers and the original Pilgrim settlers. Small, but def. enough to split a family in two and two VERY distinct groups in their own right. Later we had more distinct groups entering. This is not to say that the groups didn't change. They did, but society around them changed as well. However, many groups retained their identity and cultural norms.

I have no issue with legal immigrants retaining their culture, or speaking their language. However, if they refuse to embrace our laws and customs, and they refuse to learn English, they should remain in their countries of origin. If I chose to live permanently in a foreign country, I would certainly not be so arrogant to expect the citizens to adopt my language and customs.

Again, it emerged really in the 1800s with the great migration to the US. The modern argument is really a reiteration of the Know Nothing party of the 1800s. The different groups did change, yes. But society changed as well. These groups still retained much of their traditions.

I disagree. Prior to the illegal Mexican invasion, immigrants in this country embraced our culture. They were eager to add their culture to the pot; they did not try to replace it. Nor, did they expect the citizens of this country to abandon the established culture to accommodate them. After all, they came here because of, not in spite of, our culture.

The death of these traditions is not due to assimilation, but more due to the rise of consumer culture and mass. Which is not to say that mass consumerism and mass in itself is bad. Worldwide, we are unified under the idea of spending and information. This is why China is adopting the "spend more" ethos and why Africa is the world's fastest growing cell phone market. The world is shrinking in this regard, but that's a different topic altogether (has a bearing on this, but don't want to continue on).

People toss about the word Balkanization without even knowing the true context of the word. We aren't a nation occupied being forced under one culture (Serbian dominance in an unpopular communist regime).

I stand by my comments. Without a common language, we will have separate groups all vying for dominance. There will be no unity.

The demise of America would come about just like the same way it did with the Balkans; rampant nationalism with little regard to the general public.

No, the demise will result from political correctness and anarchy.

Not eroded by the 2-3% of the population, but rather by those who decide not to look at the larger structural problems and try to fix it. Instead they look at non-existent problems and pander it to people who believe we will end up fragmented. Meaning people who are "afraid" of the other. Instead of inclusion, these people feel threatened. Instead of looking at historical models and current trends they rather rely on very few selected interactions to base their judgement on.

We do not need to embrace illegal aliens. They are interlopers, and they are not welcome. We are a sovereign nation, and we have every right to refuse entry to foreigners.

Actually having lived in Saudi Arabia, our lives were better as expats. Having been to Sudan, if you are upper middle class in Khartoum, it's not wholly different. My roomate's family lived in suburban Shanghai. I've been to Kowloon. And frankly, again, the rise of the global economy and global media really makes things shrink. The global middle class is really kind of uniformed in its values. That's my point is that maybe what you consider unique to America is not.

As a woman and a Christian, my life would not be better in Saudi Arabia. I would be prohibited from driving a car; I would be required to wear a burka; and my Bible would be confiscated at the airport, to name a few.

National laws are not the same as culture. Arabs in America share the same culture as those in the Middle East, but different national laws. Chinese immigrants in America share a common culture with those back in China, but again...different national laws. Granted, laws may influence culture (and vice-versa), but confusing the two (stating that the two are one in the same) is well, incorrect.

I certainly recognize the difference between culture and laws. Bottom line: An estimated 20+ million foreigners have chosen to violate our laws. They should not be rewarded.
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Old 12-03-2009, 06:56 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,088,829 times
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jeez, and I thought her last post was awesome.
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Old 12-04-2009, 01:39 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,077,957 times
Reputation: 822
[quote=Benicar;11879989]We are all unique individuals. As such, we have diverse personalities. How on earth does that negate a dominant American culture? Some people drink, use drugs, and cheat on spouses; while others don’t. Does that indicate they are from different cultures? Of course not.

What? So people from Brittany are the same as people from Catalonia? Not even the same language (which I mentioned). People from Catalonia are the same as people from Isle de France (Paris)? Really? Your point to my point is, well, shows a lack of understanding. It may be possible that you did not understand what I went when I first introduced the point.

Unity via tolerance? Tolerance of what? If you are referring to illegal immigration, forget it.

Again, tolerance of the many types of cultures that live inside our borders. Also, tolerant of obtaining laws that address the unique nature of how some of the people have entered into our nation.

I have no issue with legal immigrants retaining their culture, or speaking their language. However, if they refuse to embrace our laws and customs, and they refuse to learn English, they should remain in their countries of origin. If I chose to live permanently in a foreign country, I would certainly not be so arrogant to expect the citizens to adopt my language and customs.

I somehow doubt that if you live in another nation you would act any differently than the majority of most American's abroad. Which is not a good or bad thing. I will say that some people have been against people retaining their culture (citing that a nation without a uniform culture is subject to Balkanization)...

Again, it emerged really in the 1800s with the great migration to the US. The modern argument is really a reiteration of the Know Nothing party of the 1800s. The different groups did change, yes. But society changed as well. These groups still retained much of their traditions.

I disagree. Prior to the illegal Mexican invasion, immigrants in this country embraced our culture. They were eager to add their culture to the pot; they did not try to replace it. Nor, did they expect the citizens of this country to abandon the established culture to accommodate them. After all, they came here because of, not in spite of, our culture.

[COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"]I know you may disagree, but frankly, your argument doesn't make sense...I going to have to assume (due to bad grammar...which we all have, but this illuminates the ambiguity that may result). "They" refers to the past immigrants.

If "they" refers to older immigrant communities, we see that past immigrant communities also wanted to retain their culture and language since they felt that they would loose their identity, It's not as cut and dry as the mythology presents itself.[/color]

I stand by my comments. Without a common language, we will have separate groups all vying for dominance. There will be no unity.

[COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"]Which, again goes back to how I mentioned I'm fine with people learning English, but if people want to speak their own language with other speakers...that's completely fine as well. [/color]

No, the demise will result from political correctness and anarchy.

[COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"]Again...learn your history...don't toss about words that you clearly don't have an idea of it's history...[/color]

We do not need to embrace illegal aliens. They are interlopers, and they are not welcome. We are a sovereign nation, and we have every right to refuse entry to foreigners.

[COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"]Wow, that's a knee jerk reactionary take on the issue. It clearly is an issue that needs to take an approach of tolerance and rationality. Nationalism is not the sole justification against people we can only provide.
[/color]
As a woman and a Christian, my life would not be better in Saudi Arabia. I would be prohibited from driving a car; I would be required to wear a burka; and my Bible would be confiscated at the airport, to name a few.

[COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"]Really? Depends on where...I can show you my Bible I had in since Saudi Arabia. It was a requisite that we register with any non Jewish church. To enter the country we registered with a Baptist church in San Diego.
In fact it's inscribed in gold, (24k from Jeddah via Bahrain into Riyadh) My mom drove a school bus in S.A. Mostly we had public transportation or a private Yemenese driver. In fact, life was a little easier back there...

But this goes back to the point that the global middle class isn't as different as you may think.[/color]

I certainly recognize the difference between culture and laws. Bottom line: An estimated 20+ million foreigners have chosen to violate our laws. They should not be rewarded

Much of many other posts state otherwise...that you imply "Rule of Law" is somehow uniquely American or Anglo. Otherwise you wouldn't have added nations such as China to prove a point. China's main difference in it's middle class is national law. However, middle class Chinese people live in housing tracts (like in the US), own a car (like in the US) and generally consume (like in the US). You neglect over arching issues and similarities.
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Old 12-04-2009, 11:19 AM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,070,242 times
Reputation: 2244
i think we as a progressive people have sought to unite while the rest of our ancestors were divided.

i dont know how much credit i give our forefathers in uniting the country (not as a whole, but as a people/community,. particularly since they were the ones who sought to keep us seperate but equal.

i think this unity is a more recent (50 years) phenom. but there are still lots of people who would rather have us be divided...

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
OK..still friends. However, I have to ask...WHY is it, do you suppose, that these diverse people you mention (above), manage to 'get along' here in the US, when they might NOT have gotten along elsewhere? It's not the water; it's not the air; it's not the climate. Must be 'the system', it seems to me....and that system was not designed by YOUR ancestors, nor by mine...nor by Mr. Herrera's....and he and I both recognize that fact, and both Mr. Herrera, and I....(and I believe you, too, and all those diverse folks you mention) are now able to live peacefully and happily here, because of that 'system' that was invented and made into law....by a certain group of "you-know-who", whose language HAPPENED to be English. WHY this works, I don't know...but it does, and Mr. Herrera recognizes that, and so do I, and I believe, so do you. MY ancestors certainly never came up with a 'system' like this, but I'm glad someone did.

AS for the food, as I said, I don't care. I can eat any kind of food I want...and often do. So do you. But FOOD isn't what I'm referring to in speaking of basic culture. Our basic culture of 'openness' and inclusiveness is what makes it possible for you and I to be ourselves, and not worry about being killed or our homes being burned down because we're 'different'.

Thanks for your posts, friend...
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Old 12-04-2009, 01:09 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,070,242 times
Reputation: 2244
WOW O WOW!!!

you shut it down again!

good going. your knowledge is vast and varied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
It’s interesting that you can delineate culture as it applies to other countries. Yet, you believe the U.S. has no distinct culture. Rather, we are the lone country comprised of multiple cultures, all having equal status. In other words, the U.S. is merely a cultural free-for-all; a country in which all foreigners are welcome to live here without being expected to conform to our established norms. After all, if there is no “real” culture, there is no need for assimilation. Right?

The example I made proved that we are not "the lone country" with many cultures. America has many diverse communities that are uniquely American. Meaning your argument is simply too simplistic. What's more American than the Amish (a group of people that aren't consumed with mass consumerism, and many are German speaking). Yet, this "American" group doesn't fit the stereotype. What about liberal San Francisco residents into tree-hugging, wine drinking, and pot smoking. Sure they speak English, but they don't share many of the same values as the suburban housewife in Minnesota. There are many communities in the US. There are over 300 million people living in the US. The US spans the entire width of the North American continent. Of course there are multiple cultures, sub cultures, etc. living inside of it.

The fact that so many pro-illegals are hell-bent on multiculturalism rather than “unity” speaks volumes. Actually, I don’t believe pro-ilegals support multiculturalism. Rather, you are advocating for biculturalism under the guise of multiculturalism. You want one English-speaking culture, and one Spanish-speaking culture, period.

Again, you're wrong. We want unity via tolerance. Not via homogeny. I speak French, I'm West African, German, Irish, and actually a quarter "Anglo" (from the 1700s or so was when the first documented Quaker with the last name Freeman was written, however, the first man with the last name Freeman was in 1637. The family lore goes that the Mass Bay Colony Freemans and the Penn. Freemans split at around the 1700s resulting in the Penn. Freemans becoming Quakers). Why would I want biculturalism only?

Without a common language there can be no unity. How can we be expected to understand, let alone embrace another culture, if we can’t even communicate? Now, we have a melting post consisting of U.S. citizens and legal immigrants, and a separate and distinct pot primarily consisting of Spanish-speaking illegal aliens. Only nativists oppose this “new” America.

I encourage people to learn English, but not to forget their language or feel that they shouldn't speak it. We've been a nation of distinct groups...my family in the 1700s proved that with the split between Quakers and the original Pilgrim settlers. Small, but def. enough to split a family in two and two VERY distinct groups in their own right. Later we had more distinct groups entering. This is not to say that the groups didn't change. They did, but society around them changed as well. However, many groups retained their identity and cultural norms.

This so-called multicultural U.S. only emerged in response to having millions of Spanish-speaking peasants who are unable and/or unwilling to conform to the culture of this country; which, by the way, includes the English language. Yes, many past immigrants retained their language and ethnic cuisine, but they have always added to a pot to be shared by ALL, and they embraced the English language as being a requisite for their new lives as “Americans.” We cannot remain the “United” States, if we become a balkanized nation. Frankly, who would want to live here under those circumstances?

Again, it emerged really in the 1800s with the great migration to the US. The modern argument is really a reiteration of the Know Nothing party of the 1800s. The different groups did change, yes. But society changed as well. These groups still retained much of their traditions.

The death of these traditions is not due to assimilation, but more due to the rise of consumer culture and mass. Which is not to say that mass consumerism and mass in itself is bad. Worldwide, we are unified under the idea of spending and information. This is why China is adopting the "spend more" ethos and why Africa is the world's fastest growing cell phone market. The world is shrinking in this regard, but that's a different topic altogether (has a bearing on this, but don't want to continue on).

People toss about the word Balkanization without even knowing the true context of the word. We aren't a nation occupied being forced under one culture (Serbian dominance in an unpopular communist regime).

Sadly, in your quest to garner support for illegal immigration, you fail to realize the same biculturalism you espouse, will ultimately lead to the demise of the “America” you claim to love, and the world yearns to experience. We now have an insidious form of political correctness which dictates that anything goes. There is no right, and there is no wrong; and all who oppose illegal immigration are racists, xenophobes, right-wing fanatics, close-minded, ignorant, hateful, and sundry other terms intended to demean and marginalize.

The demise of America would come about just like the same way it did with the Balkans; rampant nationalism with little regard to the general public.

As macmeal eloquently expressed, the essence of this country, and the attraction for foreigners, are our freedoms, our laws, and our mores. Unfortunately, they are all being systematically eroded for the sake of cheap illegal labor.

Not eroded by the 2-3% of the population, but rather by those who decide not to look at the larger structural problems and try to fix it. Instead they look at non-existent problems and pander it to people who believe we will end up fragmented. Meaning people who are "afraid" of the other. Instead of inclusion, these people feel threatened. Instead of looking at historical models and current trends they rather rely on very few selected interactions to base their judgement on.

Rather than asking, "What is American culture?" Perhaps you should think of how your life would differ in Saudi Arabia, China, N. Korea, Sudan, etc., etc., etc. What freedoms would you lose? What laws and beliefs would be forced upon you? Perhaps then, you will understand what is meant by the “American culture” we value. The culture of a country is much more than architecture, food, and language. The American culture has been determined by the hearts and souls of its citizens. We will not allow our culture to be dictated by an invasion of Spanish-speaking illegal aliens. Not by a long shot.

Actually having lived in Saudi Arabia, our lives were better as expats. Having been to Sudan, if you are upper middle class in Khartoum, it's not wholly different. My roomate's family lived in suburban Shanghai. I've been to Kowloon. And frankly, again, the rise of the global economy and global media really makes things shrink. The global middle class is really kind of uniformed in its values. That's my point is that maybe what you consider unique to America is not.

National laws are not the same as culture. Arabs in America share the same culture as those in the Middle East, but different national laws. Chinese immigrants in America share a common culture with those back in China, but again...different national laws. Granted, laws may influence culture (and vice-versa), but confusing the two (stating that the two are one in the same) is well, incorrect.
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Old 12-04-2009, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Lol, I am sure your are right, macmeal. I am doing my best to ignore the nonsense that is spouted about our "non-existant" basic culture.
I have to chuckle as well. Our 'non existant culture' is clearly much better than places like Mexico where their 'culture of violence' is consuming it.
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Old 12-04-2009, 07:03 PM
 
18 posts, read 9,928 times
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
I have to chuckle as well. Our 'non existant culture' is clearly much better than places like Mexico where their 'culture of violence' is consuming it.
Nobody said the culture was "non existant". They're saying its a composite of many, and doesn't have to conform to that of one ethnic group.

It's a pretty simple concept.

Even the most prized ideals of America are borrowed from other cultures that came before it.
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