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Lets remmember that the majority of people that are in this kind of situation, are people that had been in extreem situations they might not have a degree or a complete education and to try to blend in it makes it hard and some cases they are immediately judge and rejected to blend in, so thats why they choose to help eachother (people in their same situation)... It is a hard and unfortunate situation that they are in. God bless all of us so we never end up in that situation.
I pay my taxes and to know that a portion of that can help a family (human beeing like me) in such a horrible situation is great. In Life you never know what is next and if that person is me and my family I will be very appreciative of knowing there is good in this world.
You remind me of the folks who feel sorry for the wolves in Wyoming Idaho and Montana. Well Alaska too. They are quick to hire lawyers to prevent a hunt on wolves that would control their population but donate no time, money or effort to finding a real solution. You say you hope someone would help you and yours. So do many of our own starving homeless people. But what do you actually do? You ask america to be charitable to illegals. But what about our own?
Those on this forum who know me also know that I dont just talk the talk, I actually help my fellow americans and those who can't help themselves. Put your hope and prayers on a dinner plate and let me know how many it feeds.
Yes we all accept that many illegals come from places you or I would not want to live. We accept that their plight is more stressful and less rewarding than ours.
However, we have our own unfortunates. We have limited resourses. We need to look within and repair our own problems before we try to cure the world.
We neither owe illegals nor can we afford them.
My point (above...#27) was that in a situation where we're pushing hard to convince ourselves that 'all cultures share the same basic values and ethics..and MOSTLY differ only in superficial ways', we've lost the ability to see that there are profound differences in cultures; that the USA has a culture, which is absolutely needed if we're going to continue as a free society; and that other nations do not necessarily share our outlook on life... particularly poor, Third-World countries with deep class divisions.
To think that because a middle-class American would see the 'need' to obey laws, voluntarily, because laws are fair..or that he'd be 'ashamed' to cross a border illegally, because that would make him a criminal....in NO WAY infers that a member of another culture would feel this way. Our "wrong" may very well be his "right". What's important to US, in our society, may be of little interest to him, in his. And a person raised in a society in which laws are basically nothing more than a joke, is unlikely to suddenly 'convert' into having a deep respect for OUR laws, by virtue of having arrived here by breaking one of them
That's all I'm saying....that illegals have no moral 'duty' to preserve our society, nor to worry about our future..their duty is to themselves. OUR duty is to keep them out, unless they enter legally...and we're not doing our duty very well.
Illegal aliens aren't 'bad' as such...in their situation, what they're doing makes perfect sense. And in their society, one does what he wants, until he's stopped. And so far, what they WANT, is to come here...and we're not stoping them. In a Third-World society, that's looked at as an open invitation. All cultures are NOT equivalent; they have VERY different ways of seeing 'right and wrong'.
It would be well to remember that we USED to have a culture here..and to think about enforcing some of its rules from now on....such as "the ONLY acceptable way to enter the USA is through legal means"...period. If we simply acted like we believed THAT, it would send a tremendous message. So far, we seem reluctant to do that.
I'm gonna do whatever it takes to support my family. And I don't care what that requires.
Many American lawbreakers feel exactly the same way. That's why American lawbreakers steal cars, burglarize houses, rob people, deal drugs, steal IDs, commit fraud, etc.
So while your friends and others married—even though they were poor—and struggled to form a family, you would remain single and childless. Sounds like a rather bleak existence. But, hey, to each his own.
I know many people who are single and childless, and who aren't living a bleak existence. In fact, they're very happy with their current existence.
My point (above...#27) was that in a situation where we're pushing hard to convince ourselves that 'all cultures share the same basic values and ethics..and MOSTLY differ only in superficial ways', we've lost the ability to see that there are profound differences in cultures; that the USA has a culture, which is absolutely needed if we're going to continue as a free society; and that other nations do not necessarily share our outlook on life... particularly poor, Third-World countries with deep class divisions.
To think that because a middle-class American would see the 'need' to obey laws, voluntarily, because laws are fair..or that he'd be 'ashamed' to cross a border illegally, because that would make him a criminal....in NO WAY infers that a member of another culture would feel this way. Our "wrong" may very well be his "right". What's important to US, in our society, may be of little interest to him, in his. And a person raised in a society in which laws are basically nothing more than a joke, is unlikely to suddenly 'convert' into having a deep respect for OUR laws, by virtue of having arrived here by breaking one of them
That's all I'm saying....that illegals have no moral 'duty' to preserve our society, nor to worry about our future..their duty is to themselves. OUR duty is to keep them out, unless they enter legally...and we're not doing our duty very well.
Illegal aliens aren't 'bad' as such...in their situation, what they're doing makes perfect sense. And in their society, one does what he wants, until he's stopped. And so far, what they WANT, is to come here...and we're not stoping them. In a Third-World society, that's looked at as an open invitation. All cultures are NOT equivalent; they have VERY different ways of seeing 'right and wrong'.
It would be well to remember that we USED to have a culture here..and to think about enforcing some of its rules from now on....such as "the ONLY acceptable way to enter the USA is through legal means"...period. If we simply acted like we believed THAT, it would send a tremendous message. So far, we seem reluctant to do that.
I hear ya loud and clear skipper. The one thing that still bothers me is if a BP vehicle drives through an area with known Illegals they scatter like someone threw a grenade.
That tells me that they know what they are doing is wrong and punishable. But you are right, until they are stopped they will keep coming, breaking our laws and taking, taking and taking.
I hear ya loud and clear skipper. The one thing that still bothers me is if a BP vehicle drives through an area with known Illegals they scatter like someone threw a grenade.
That tells me that they know what they are doing is wrong and punishable. But you are right, until they are stopped they will keep coming, breaking our laws and taking, taking and taking.
That is why an open border can NEVER happen.
So true. Essentially, this is a purely hypothetical thread...it asks "would YOU..(the reader...most of us middle class Americans) become an illegal alien"? The answer is usually "No...of course not". That's because middle-class Americans tend to be impressed with laws (particularly the laws of benevolent societies); tend to have adequate income; tend to see OTHER places as 'worse off' than they are...and have no particular pressing desire to leave here and go elsewhere, unless it's as a tourist, or an 'adventurer'.
But illegal immigrants AREN'T middle-class Americans, and they don't think, look at life, or regard themselves as middle class Americans. Illegal aliens have a CULTURE, which they have no intention of giving up. They are NOT Americans, and many of them have no desire to BECOME Americans, either (unless we let 'American' mean just eligibility for 'goodies', like a Costco card). Illegal imigrants don't come here because they love our culture, or want to be part of it. They come here because they can make more money here than they can back home.
Lots of Americans at one time worked in various parts of the Middle East and Indonesia; they worked on the Alaska pipeline, too. That doesn't mean they wanted to become Arabs, or Indonesians....nor did most of them want to live permanently in Alaska. They did this because they could make big money doing so. Illegals come here for the same reason. The fact that they're breaking 'our' laws means little to them. They regard our laws as 'ours', not theirs. How many Americans would feel "bad" if they violated the laws of Communist China, or Uzbekhistan? Probably not many. Americans don't feel morally obligated to obey the laws of foreign places; they do so only if forced to. Illegal aliens feel no moral obligation to obey OUR laws..and we don't force them to, either.
So true. Essentially, this is a purely hypothetical thread...it asks "would YOU..(the reader...most of us middle class Americans) become an illegal alien"? The answer is usually "No...of course not". That's because middle-class Americans tend to be impressed with laws (particularly the laws of benevolent societies); tend to have adequate income; tend to see OTHER places as 'worse off' than they are...and have no particular pressing desire to leave here and go elsewhere, unless it's as a tourist, or an 'adventurer'.
But illegal immigrants AREN'T middle-class Americans, and they don't think, look at life, or regard themselves as middle class Americans. Illegal aliens have a CULTURE, which they have no intention of giving up. They are NOT Americans, and many of them have no desire to BECOME Americans, either (unless we let 'American' mean just eligibility for 'goodies', like a Costco card). Illegal imigrants don't come here because they love our culture, or want to be part of it. They come here because they can make more money here than they can back home.
Lots of Americans at one time worked in various parts of the Middle East and Indonesia; they worked on the Alaska pipeline, too. That doesn't mean they wanted to become Arabs, or Indonesians....nor did most of them want to live permanently in Alaska. They did this because they could make big money doing so. Illegals come here for the same reason. The fact that they're breaking 'our' laws means little to them. They regard our laws as 'ours', not theirs. How many Americans would feel "bad" if they violated the laws of Communist China, or Uzbekhistan? Probably not many. Americans don't feel morally obligated to obey the laws of foreign places; they do so only if forced to. Illegal aliens feel no moral obligation to obey OUR laws..and we don't force them to, either.
Yes, most illegals probably regard our laws as 'ours', not theirs. But I think most try to conform to our law, if for no other reason, because it reduces the chance of being nabbed and sent packing. Some illegals are criminals, no doubt (criminals because they steal/rob, not only because they are illegal immigrants). But most are just here to get a job and make a buck.
To answer my own original post, I would do whatever it took to feed my family. I would exhaust all other legitimate ways of making money before heading north. But as a last resort I would become an illegal alien to put food on the table.
To answer my own original post, I would do whatever it took to feed my family. I would exhaust all other legitimate ways of making money before heading north. But as a last resort I would become an illegal alien to put food on the table.
I believe you would be speaking for all of us if things at home became that bad.
My father when he fled Hungary ca. 1948 was technically 'illegal' in Austria, etc. till he secured refugee status in Germany shortly thereafter. That stated: he knew and accepted the risks of doing what he did.
And the main reason he left home was for political reasons----------his life was likely in danger.
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