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Old 01-02-2010, 11:42 PM
 
Location: in my home
96 posts, read 365,457 times
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I have long been wondering why more recently, people come from a poor country to a rich one and then expect the rich country to change to be more like the country they left. If the rich country does change to accomodate the illegal immigrant, won't the illegal just have the same problems they wanted to leave?

If someone from a poor or war-torn country wants to have what we have here, they have to do what we did to get it which means they have to change into US, not the other way around!

What I want to know is, why was it that the old immigrants worked to change into US Americans while still keeping their culture but the current immigrants (illegal or otherwise) want US to change into them? The old immigrants pushed to learn English, to learn our ways and how we work and live. The new immigrants (illegal or otherwise) push to make US change and speak their language and embrace their culture. What changed in the last hundred or so years to cause this change in how immigrants view us?
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Old 01-03-2010, 10:34 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,908 posts, read 30,162,897 times
Reputation: 17734
From what we have seen so far in the last 40 or so odd years is that Illegal Immigrants want to keep living as they did in the old Country choosing only to assimilate to the point it will keep them off of the deportation radar or allow them to make money.
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Old 01-03-2010, 10:39 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,552,571 times
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not unique to america. happening in france too.
they wana do what the did b4 but with money pretty women and lots of good food.
we carry our hell with us when we travel.
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Old 01-03-2010, 12:01 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,829,832 times
Reputation: 22174
Quote:
Originally Posted by carecare7 View Post
I have long been wondering why more recently, people come from a poor country to a rich one and then expect the rich country to change to be more like the country they left. If the rich country does change to accomodate the illegal immigrant, won't the illegal just have the same problems they wanted to leave?

If someone from a poor or war-torn country wants to have what we have here, they have to do what we did to get it which means they have to change into US, not the other way around!

What I want to know is, why was it that the old immigrants worked to change into US Americans while still keeping their culture but the current immigrants (illegal or otherwise) want US to change into them? The old immigrants pushed to learn English, to learn our ways and how we work and live. The new immigrants (illegal or otherwise) push to make US change and speak their language and embrace their culture. What changed in the last hundred or so years to cause this change in how immigrants view us?
A lot of them have less than a third grade education and really don't put two and two together. They simply do whatever is easiest to do.

In the past immigration took some effort, it meant saying good by to family and friends, starting a new life, a new way and there weren't generous welfare programs right there making sure you would "make it".

One thing people also forget - the ships headed back to Europe weren't empty. Back then if immigrants weren't up to the adaptations they needed to make, they went home, many returned home in a short time, it's estimated that one third of immigrants returned home within a few months.

Today it's different. All it takes is a walk over the border. Nothing more is needed. They can work if they want or they can have a baby and be given welfare handouts that make them feel like queens and kings compared to what they had back home. Or head to some sanctuary shelter if the baby doesn't come right away, there is no failing allowed today, no reason to ever return home.

No need at all to learn the language here, or much of anything. Their leaders and teachers now tell them that the USA once belonged to them, that the Aztecs ruled over the entire North American continent and the illegals, especially their children believe it.
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Old 01-03-2010, 01:20 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,633,512 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
A lot of them have less than a third grade education and really don't put two and two together. They simply do whatever is easiest to do.

In the past immigration took some effort, it meant saying good by to family and friends, starting a new life, a new way and there weren't generous welfare programs right there making sure you would "make it".

One thing people also forget - the ships headed back to Europe weren't empty. Back then if immigrants weren't up to the adaptations they needed to make, they went home, many returned home in a short time, it's estimated that one third of immigrants returned home within a few months.

Today it's different. All it takes is a walk over the border. Nothing more is needed. They can work if they want or they can have a baby and be given welfare handouts that make them feel like queens and kings compared to what they had back home. Or head to some sanctuary shelter if the baby doesn't come right away, there is no failing allowed today, no reason to ever return home.

No need at all to learn the language here, or much of anything. Their leaders and teachers now tell them that the USA once belonged to them, that the Aztecs ruled over the entire North American continent and the illegals, especially their children believe it.
All true. I've known illegals over many years, and I've just about beaten the subject to death.but in short, you're correct. Illegals, just like everyone else, want things as easy as possible. Assimilation is hard; it takes time, commitment, and effort. It requires leaving one's 'comfort zone', and adapting to new things.

Illegals don't necessarily "want the US to change"..they'd simply rather see IT change, than have to change, themselves. We encourage this; they sense our enthusiasm toward 'all things multicultural', and they sense, that if 'push comes to shove', that we (the US) WILL change, to suit them...(or to suit anyone else who has a 'problem' with our society). So they take the easy way out. It's human nature. Immigrants (even legal ones) can hardly be expected to 'maintain and support' our culture, and our way of life, if they sense that we ourselves don't care. To a newly-arrived 'outsider', it appears that we don't really HAVE a culture..

Given that, it should hardly be surprising that illegals would rather 'cling to what they know', than to try to adapt something that they DON'T know, and that we don't push. Our 'traditions' aren't their traditions, our 'standards' aren't theirs, either. Even our laws aren't theirs. They don't have an great overriding impetus to "become Americans"; what they want is an easier, more lucrative life that they had back home. That part, they certainly understand. When 'shouting and demanding' are seen to 'pay off', they do that, too...whatever works. Assimilation, though? Adapting to our culture? Obeying our laws? Illegals see this as neither required, nor even neccessarily desirable. We've helped them feel that way, by our infatuation with multiculturalism. If "all cultures are equivalent and good", an illegal may reasonably conclude, "then what's wrong with just staying the way I am? Why change ?". Good question, I'm afraid. Why, indeed?

Last edited by macmeal; 01-03-2010 at 01:40 PM..
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Old 01-03-2010, 06:35 PM
 
313 posts, read 295,511 times
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THis is the same emotional argument that goes on over and over and over again.

The same selective memory about the blissful, romanticized days when the immigrant was a European who wanted nothing more than to be an American. Over night shedding his culture in favor of the glorious American culture.

And then today, the swarmy, dark Mexican or Central American immigrant spitting on the American flag, making demands and wanting to "change" the country. Cackling as he refuses to speak English and wants to take over "your" country.


The reality is people like to glorify and romanticize their immigrant forefathers, and shake their head self-righteously at the immigrants of today. The system was much different back then.
Today, the American population is also a lot less prejudiced and listens more to formerly disenfranchised people: minorities, immigrants, et al.

You want to know more about the glorious past of the European immigrant? Read the Jungle by Upton Sinclair. Compare it to the situation of today.
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Old 01-03-2010, 06:37 PM
 
313 posts, read 295,511 times
Reputation: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
From what we have seen so far in the last 40 or so odd years is that Illegal Immigrants want to keep living as they did in the old Country choosing only to assimilate to the point it will keep them off of the deportation radar or allow them to make money.
The last 40 years or so huh? Yeah ,we get exactly who you're talking about. What an injustice to the contributing Americans of the immigrants of the last 40 years.
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Old 01-03-2010, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,834,008 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by arpayaso View Post
THis is the same emotional argument that goes on over and over and over again.

The same selective memory about the blissful, romanticized days when the immigrant was a European who wanted nothing more than to be an American. Over night shedding his culture in favor of the glorious American culture.

And then today, the swarmy, dark Mexican or Central American immigrant spitting on the American flag, making demands and wanting to "change" the country. Cackling as he refuses to speak English and wants to take over "your" country.


The reality is people like to glorify and romanticize their immigrant forefathers, and shake their head self-righteously at the immigrants of today. The system was much different back then.
Today, the American population is also a lot less prejudiced and listens more to formerly disenfranchised people: minorities, immigrants, et al.

You want to know more about the glorious past of the European immigrant? Read the Jungle by Upton Sinclair. Compare it to the situation of today.
No, it wasn’t done “overnight.” Total assimilation requires time and effort. Most of all, it requires a desire to change. Illegals have no such desire. They only consider the U.S. a convenient place to use; and they intend to use us until there is nothing left to gain -- like vultures eating a carcass.

And yes, this is OUR country. Come here legally and comply with our laws, and it can become THEIR country as well. For now, they have no claim. Thus, they have no right to expect or demand anything.
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Old 01-03-2010, 08:48 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,633,512 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by arpayaso View Post
THis is the same emotional argument that goes on over and over and over again.

The same selective memory about the blissful, romanticized days when the immigrant was a European who wanted nothing more than to be an American. Over night shedding his culture in favor of the glorious American culture.
Today, the American population is also a lot less prejudiced

Boy, what a gullible rustic THAT guy must have been...imagine that, shedding his culture and wanting to become an American!...in America, of all places!...what a hoot that must have been. Almost like they felt the place was worth changing for, and committing to. I suppose the poor 'saps' were also pressured to pledge allegiance to the flag and all that silly stuff. What went through their minds, allowing themselves to be 'used' like that? And all that, back in a time when America was a lot less prejudiced....Wow! I'm surprised these folks were able to chew gum and walk. Sounds like a real shipload of 'dummies', if you ask me.

Nevertheless, they did persevere; many Mexicans around at that time persevered, too. They 'stuck it out' and today, their descendants are Americans, and other people, whose ancestors stayed home, are NOT Americans, and if you can't comprehend that distinction, there's nothing more to say.

These early 'gullible' immigrants also arrived in the millions, when industry was 'labor intensive', and a 'dumb', illiterate immigrant, with no English at all, and nothing more than a strong back, had an extremely favorable chance of finding a job, supporting a large family, and being a net 'plus' to the community around him. If he couldn't 'make it' he was on his own...sink or swim.

Today, that is no longer possible, and such people (even Americans), no longer 'benefit' the system..the system must 'carry' them. We can't even place our own high-school dropouts. And that's one MORE difference between 'Now' and 'then'...and if that's too hard to understand, once again, I can't help you.

Conditions change. So do societies. So do economies, and in almost every case, what 'made sense' 100 years ago doesn't always 'make sense' today. But we already know that...some of us just like to argue.

Last edited by macmeal; 01-03-2010 at 09:21 PM..
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Old 01-04-2010, 08:19 AM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
60,914 posts, read 30,838,425 times
Reputation: 12977
6 out of 10 students in Texas schools, are children of illegal aliens.
Free breakfast and free lunches, along with free ESL.
The income doesn't come close to the spent.
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