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Obviously, you haven’t read many threads on this forum. Otherwise, you would realize we have discussed EVERY aspect of the illegal immigration issue. No one has exonerated our government or the greedy scum employers, or “swept it under the rug.” We are well aware of the collusion between our government, the corporate elite, and Mexico in facilitating this mess. Perhaps you should peruse the threads prior to posting accusations.
Benicar, what he/she is denying is that there IS a collusion between our politicians/government and the greedy corporations and the drug cartels that keeps them from securing our borders.
I don't know who these far left liberals are but what purpose would it serve to place blame on Mexico for the illegal immigration issue our country faces? It isn't like we can just go to their leaders and say shame on you, fix this problem that is now affecting us. Throwing around blame is a complete waste of time, we should be more focused on finding a solution and then acting upon it.
Because Mexico IS to blame for not providing for their own citizens. Surely you can see this! Our blame in this is not stopping them from dumping their poor on us by not securing our borders and taking other measures to stop them (of which our government is in collusion with corporate America for cheap labor). We have already offered a solution, you just don't like it.
I have said why I thought the borders have not been secure 3 times. it is about money and the lack of it to pay for man power to patrol IMO.
for the sake of "reality" and not rhetoric, if there is proof in your assertion that it is because of corrupt politicians then you should be able to point to it other than to bring blog messages and chain emails to the thread. if you are just throwing it out there as your opinion I can respect that just don't pass it off as fact. at least macmeal said the points about people eating dogs and only men being educated as a reason for assimilation were the worst case scenario, not indeed fact. if indeed it is truth that a small group of politicians are engaging in illegal activities against the usa, you know about it and no one else does it is your duty as a US citizen to bring it to the attention of the authorihies. it is a crime. if you were just sprouting off an opinion that is another matter all together just don't pass it off as fact. so which is it? if it is fact how come it is you and a few others that know about it and the rest of don't or can find the information to back up the assertion? fact or opinion?
I couldn't help overhearing. My previous references to 'eating dogs', and fostering the education of 'men only'...(and don't forget female genital mutilation), were written NOT to try to promote the idea that if these very REAL cultural practices were suddenly introduced into the USA that they might 'infect' the rest of us, and that we'd all start 'doing that stuff'; obviously, that wouldn't happen.
The above practices aren't 'intrinsically evil' or 'wrong' in any absolute way; indeed, back home, where they're practiced, they're GOOD...they make perfect sense...if they didn't, people wouldn't do them.
What makes these things 'unacceptable' for importation into the US isn't the fact that they're 'evil'...it's the fact that these practices would be unacceptable to, and incompatible with, the cultural values of the USA...yes, despite what we may want to think, the USA indeed has a 'culture'...and it's pretty tolerant, but a FEW things are just not compatible with living here in our free society of benevolent laws. Some things that are 'unacceptable' I've noted above; OTHER things that are unacceptable are illegal immigration and a generally hostile attitude toward the 'rule of law'.
When Americans do things 'unacceptable' to our society, they're fined, punished, or jailed.....or at least stigmatized.
Illegal immigrants aren't 'evil' people, at all, (for the most part); they're simply not 'tuned in' to the culture of the USA, where one is not allowed to disregard our laws with impunity. Most illegals come from societies where friends, family, and one's 'in group' provide his primary source of support and solace....Here in the US, most of us don't have that...we've learned, over years of painful asimilation, that LAW and the 'Social contract' MUST take precedence over self-interest, family loyalty, and 'ethnic solidarity'. If this were not the case, our society would cease to function...either we'd lose our whole country, or we'd lose our freedom. "Law" is all we have.
Illegal immigants are acting in a perfectly rational way, by the values of their own society. Here, in the USA, that way of acting is NOT acceptable, because here, the way our society is organized, it can't work.
I couldn't help overhearing. My previous references to 'eating dogs', and fostering the education of 'men only'...(and don't forget female genital mutilation), were written NOT to try to promote the idea that if these very REAL cultural practices were suddenly introduced into the USA that they might 'infect' the rest of us, and that we'd all start 'doing that stuff'; obviously, that wouldn't happen.
The above practices aren't 'intrinsically evil' or 'wrong' in any absolute way; indeed, back home, where they're practiced, they're GOOD...they make perfect sense...if they didn't, people wouldn't do them.
What makes these things 'unacceptable' for importation into the US isn't the fact that they're 'evil'...it's the fact that these practices would be unacceptable to, and incompatible with, the cultural values of the USA...yes, despite what we may want to think, the USA indeed has a 'culture'...and it's pretty tolerant, but a FEW things are just not compatible with living here in our free society of benevolent laws. Some things that are 'unacceptable' I've noted above; OTHER things that are unacceptable are illegal immigration and a generally hostile attitude toward the 'rule of law'.
When Americans do things 'unacceptable' to our society, they're fined, punished, or jailed.....or at least stigmatized.
Illegal immigrants aren't 'evil' people, at all, (for the most part); they're simply not 'tuned in' to the culture of the USA, where one is not allowed to disregard our laws with impunity. Most illegals come from societies where friends, family, and one's 'in group' provide his primary source of support and solace....Here in the US, most of us don't have that...we've learned, over years of painful asimilation, that LAW and the 'Social contract' MUST take precedence over self-interest, family loyalty, and 'ethnic soldarity'. If this were not the case, our society would cease to function...either we'd lose our whole country, or we'd lose our freedom. "Law" is all we have.
Illegal immigants are acting in a perfectly rational way, by the values of their own society. Here, in the USA, that way of acting is NOT acceptable, because here, the way our society is organized, it can't work.
Another great post, macmeal. I would only add to the rule of law being part of our culture is that not rewarding illegal behavior is another part of our culture which some wish to change or think that by changing laws those who violated them under the old laws should only be held accountable under the new ones. If I get a speeding ticket but the speed limit is lowered on a road AFTER I sped should I not have to pay the ticket then? I don't think so!
I am a woman if that matters. I do not doubt and have said that yes there is politicians and certainly business that really could care less for their own gain that illegal immigration continues unchecked. I do not think it is rampant or there would be a bigger outcry and the politicians would be voted out as there are way more people who oppose illegals tha want to turn a blind eye. chicago's original post seemed to indicate that it was the sole reason we have not secured our borders and it was fact everyone knew and I must live in a cave not to know this. again a congressmen from fresno, along with one or two from other jurisdictions a few owners of orange groves may drag their feet and oppose all they can but to say they are the reason for the tide we have is overstatement at best. if it was not an overstatement the "knowledge" of it would be more main stream, and not just found in these threads. I have not accused anybody of anything only asked for real documentation to back up the theroy. again if it is the opinion of a few that is one thing, but to try to get people to take it as gospel without fact is quite another. as to the reason we can afford war and not secure our borders it is a matter of priority nothing more
I couldn't help overhearing. My previous references to 'eating dogs', and fostering the education of 'men only'...(and don't forget female genital mutilation), were written NOT to try to promote the idea that if these very REAL cultural practices were suddenly introduced into the USA that they might 'infect' the rest of us, and that we'd all start 'doing that stuff'; obviously, that wouldn't happen.
The above practices aren't 'intrinsically evil' or 'wrong' in any absolute way; indeed, back home, where they're practiced, they're GOOD...they make perfect sense...if they didn't, people wouldn't do them.
What makes these things 'unacceptable' for importation into the US isn't the fact that they're 'evil'...it's the fact that these practices would be unacceptable to, and incompatible with, the cultural values of the USA...yes, despite what we may want to think, the USA indeed has a 'culture'...and it's pretty tolerant, but a FEW things are just not compatible with living here in our free society of benevolent laws. Some things that are 'unacceptable' I've noted above; OTHER things that are unacceptable are illegal immigration and a generally hostile attitude toward the 'rule of law'.
When Americans do things 'unacceptable' to our society, they're fined, punished, or jailed.....or at least stigmatized.
Illegal immigrants aren't 'evil' people, at all, (for the most part); they're simply not 'tuned in' to the culture of the USA, where one is not allowed to disregard our laws with impunity. Most illegals come from societies where friends, family, and one's 'in group' provide his primary source of support and solace....Here in the US, most of us don't have that...we've learned, over years of painful asimilation, that LAW and the 'Social contract' MUST take precedence over self-interest, family loyalty, and 'ethnic solidarity'. If this were not the case, our society would cease to function...either we'd lose our whole country, or we'd lose our freedom. "Law" is all we have.
Illegal immigants are acting in a perfectly rational way, by the values of their own society. Here, in the USA, that way of acting is NOT acceptable, because here, the way our society is organized, it can't work.
mac you are not overhearing but part of the conversation, no worries. I do think a good deal of your list is wrong and even wrong for the countries that practice them. things are changing in the countries as there are people that think the practices are horrible and want them stopped and criminalized.
I think the illegals that are not tuned into our way are terrorist and criminals who have their own agenda anyway. I don't think this is something you can say as an absolute across the board for all illegas. a good percentage come to this country only to make a better life from the one they left behind
I'd like to incorporate some of views of the hardcore anti-illegal side (essentially the majority that post here) as well as a more liberal/moderate stance. Ideally.
This coming from somebody whose viewpoints on the subject of illegal immigration mirrors those of groups such as The National Council of La Raza (The Race), LULAC, MALDEF, and La Voz de Aztlan.
On the other hand, the viewpoints of the "hardcore anti-illegal side" that posts here mirrors those of the majority of Americans.
It seems to me that there are two driving factors that lead people to become passionate against illegal immigration.
Fear and nationalism.
While a healthy dose of both is not bad, do you think that it is a possibility that some have gone too far? That possibly arguments of becoming a third world nation and solutions of militarization of the border are slightly extreme? Some say that extreme actions must be taken (deportation, militarization, etc.) Do you feel this way? If so, why?
The two reasons you list have little or nothing to do with this issue.
I'll let others address the many legal, moral and financial reasons and limit this to what it's actually done to me and my family.
We've operated a seasonal produce business for the last 15 years. Illegals setting up benches on every other corner have saturated the market to the point that our profit has been reduced by close to 70%. From 15k to a little over 4k. The rest of the year we do specialty construction work. The 'immigrants' have suppressed these construction wages to the late 80s level. How can legal citizens with families paying taxes and insurance compete with young, single, cash earning illegals living 6 to a room? I'll tell you how. We cashed in everything. Called in all debts and favors and moved to an isolated rural area. Had we stayed we would quite possibly have been on the street by now.
Back to your question. Maybe your partly correct. Fear.
A 50% reduction in income, a wife and 3 kids will do that to you.
I am a woman if that matters. I do not doubt and have said that yes there is politicians and certainly business that really could care less for their own gain that illegal immigration continues unchecked. I do not think it is rampant or there would be a bigger outcry and the politicians would be voted out as there are way more people who oppose illegals tha want to turn a blind eye. chicago's original post seemed to indicate that it was the sole reason we have not secured our borders and it was fact everyone knew and I must live in a cave not to know this. again a congressmen from fresno, along with one or two from other jurisdictions a few owners of orange groves may drag their feet and oppose all they can but to say they are the reason for the tide we have is overstatement at best. if it was not an overstatement the "knowledge" of it would be more main stream, and not just found in these threads. I have not accused anybody of anything only asked for real documentation to back up the theroy. again if it is the opinion of a few that is one thing, but to try to get people to take it as gospel without fact is quite another. as to the reason we can afford war and not secure our borders it is a matter of priority nothing more
Who do you think OWNS this country? Hint: They also own the mainstream media, and most of our politicians. So, don’t expect to hear the truth reported.
I couldn't help overhearing. My previous references to 'eating dogs', and fostering the education of 'men only'...(and don't forget female genital mutilation), were written NOT to try to promote the idea that if these very REAL cultural practices were suddenly introduced into the USA that they might 'infect' the rest of us, and that we'd all start 'doing that stuff'; obviously, that wouldn't happen.
The above practices aren't 'intrinsically evil' or 'wrong' in any absolute way; indeed, back home, where they're practiced, they're GOOD...they make perfect sense...if they didn't, people wouldn't do them.
What makes these things 'unacceptable' for importation into the US isn't the fact that they're 'evil'...it's the fact that these practices would be unacceptable to, and incompatible with, the cultural values of the USA...yes, despite what we may want to think, the USA indeed has a 'culture'...and it's pretty tolerant, but a FEW things are just not compatible with living here in our free society of benevolent laws. Some things that are 'unacceptable' I've noted above; OTHER things that are unacceptable are illegal immigration and a generally hostile attitude toward the 'rule of law'.
When Americans do things 'unacceptable' to our society, they're fined, punished, or jailed.....or at least stigmatized.
Illegal immigrants aren't 'evil' people, at all, (for the most part); they're simply not 'tuned in' to the culture of the USA, where one is not allowed to disregard our laws with impunity. Most illegals come from societies where friends, family, and one's 'in group' provide his primary source of support and solace....Here in the US, most of us don't have that...we've learned, over years of painful asimilation, that LAW and the 'Social contract' MUST take precedence over self-interest, family loyalty, and 'ethnic solidarity'. If this were not the case, our society would cease to function...either we'd lose our whole country, or we'd lose our freedom. "Law" is all we have.
Illegal immigants are acting in a perfectly rational way, by the values of their own society. Here, in the USA, that way of acting is NOT acceptable, because here, the way our society is organized, it can't work.
Thanks!
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