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Old 01-17-2010, 01:49 AM
 
964 posts, read 1,374,953 times
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I rarely venture into this form, since it seems more hostile than the main Political and Other Controversies forum, lol, but I was watching a comedy show on HBO the other week. There was a latino comedian, (I can't remember who it was), but he had interesting take on illegal immigration. He was basically saying the founders were pretty much "illegal immigrants" of their and basically left their country's in Europe to escape hardships and oppressive gov't.

Technically there were no laws against immigration at the time, but I kind of see his point. Just like the illegal immigrants, they left their country of origins, due to oppressive governments and economic hardships and came here. They didn't sign any paper work. People argue that illegal immigrants take jobs and use our resources (in the form of public services), but the original settlers, slaughtered and took land resources from the natives.

I'm not advocating amnesty, but I think people need to stop being so arrogant and look at it from a different perspective than your own sometimes. Do we need immigration reform? Yes and that means doing a total overall of the system. I have friends who live in Europe who would love to immigrate here, but have to wait because the process is so long and costly. I don't think it's fair that a family from Mexico can come here illegal and work, while they have to wait, but at the same time I can understand why. I don't think most people have a clue how long the immigration process is. If it's a choice between earning more money to feed your family or waiting for the process and starving in the mean time while your application is considered, what would you choose?
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Old 01-17-2010, 02:18 AM
 
Location: Lubbock, Texas
331 posts, read 435,245 times
Reputation: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by e2ksj3 View Post
I rarely venture into this form, since it seems more hostile than the main Political and Other Controversies forum, lol, but I was watching a comedy show on HBO the other week. There was a latino comedian, (I can't remember who it was), but he had interesting take on illegal immigration. He was basically saying the founders were pretty much "illegal immigrants" of their and basically left their country's in Europe to escape hardships and oppressive gov't.
Not more hostile, just a lot more common sense flowing here . Alright, let's start. There's a difference in the 1770s and now. For one, there was no government here in the beginning. They started this country. There were nobody to take jobs from, no taxes to cop out of, no civic duties to shirk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e2ksj3 View Post
Technically there were no laws against immigration at the time, but I kind of see his point. Just like the illegal immigrants, they left their country of origins, due to oppressive governments and economic hardships and came here. They didn't sign any paper work. People argue that illegal immigrants take jobs and use our resources (in the form of public services), but the original settlers, slaughtered and took land resources from the natives.
Again, they didn't sign any paperwork because there was no government here. They started the government. Which makes them more entrepreneurs than illegal immigrants. And not all colonial settlements worked that way. Look at Pennsylvania with the Quakers. They lived at peace with the Native Americans, and cooperated with them in a true "commonwealth".

Quote:
Originally Posted by e2ksj3 View Post
I'm not advocating amnesty, but I think people need to stop being so arrogant and look at it from a different perspective than your own sometimes. Do we need immigration reform? Yes and that means doing a total overall of the system. I have friends who live in Europe who would love to immigrate here, but have to wait because the process is so long and costly. I don't think it's fair that a family from Mexico can come here illegal and work, while they have to wait, but at the same time I can understand why. I don't think most people have a clue how long the immigration process is. If it's a choice between earning more money to feed your family or waiting for the process and starving in the mean time while your application is considered, what would you choose?
Well, you get what you pay for. Good things come to those who wait. Tell your friends that they'll get to come here eventually. It's worked for around 200 years. Now, I think that we could pay more attention to the immigration system if we weren't having to focus on a broken economy; botched, pointless healthcare reform; and natural disasters left and right. But how about this. Stop the illegal immigration, and we can work on improving the legal immigration system. Also, there are legal ways to make money in Mexico. Don't even try to tell me that the only way to make money in Mexico is to (illegally) wade through the most polluted river in North America, work on a farm, then wade through the same river (probably bringing illness to both sides of the border in the process), to bring home less than you would make if you legally lived here!
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Old 01-17-2010, 03:36 AM
 
Location: The Wine Country, CA
807 posts, read 1,118,094 times
Reputation: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by e2ksj3 View Post
I rarely venture into this form, since it seems more hostile than the main Political and Other Controversies forum, lol, but I was watching a comedy show on HBO the other week. There was a latino comedian, (I can't remember who it was), but he had interesting take on illegal immigration. He was basically saying the founders were pretty much "illegal immigrants" of their and basically left their country's in Europe to escape hardships and oppressive gov't.

Technically there were no laws against immigration at the time, but I kind of see his point. Just like the illegal immigrants, they left their country of origins, due to oppressive governments and economic hardships and came here. They didn't sign any paper work. People argue that illegal immigrants take jobs and use our resources (in the form of public services), but the original settlers, slaughtered and took land resources from the natives.

I'm not advocating amnesty, but I think people need to stop being so arrogant and look at it from a different perspective than your own sometimes. Do we need immigration reform? Yes and that means doing a total overall of the system. I have friends who live in Europe who would love to immigrate here, but have to wait because the process is so long and costly. I don't think it's fair that a family from Mexico can come here illegal and work, while they have to wait, but at the same time I can understand why. I don't think most people have a clue how long the immigration process is. If it's a choice between earning more money to feed your family or waiting for the process and starving in the mean time while your application is considered, what would you choose?
Millions of immigrants become Legal U.S. Citizens each and every year!

People come from all over the World to live the American dream.. they learn the language and assimilate into the culture bringing their contributions..

Because so many people WANT to be American citizens, becoming a citizen is an extraordinary priviledge.. That said, "making it easier" for some people and allowing many to live in the U.S. illegally who have little to no desire to assimilate or learn the language, only cheapens the notion of U.S. Citizenship and the American Dream.. The process SHOULD require hardwork and ingenuity as this is what has helped to make the vision of the U.S. as the beacon of freedom the world over..
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Old 01-17-2010, 07:50 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,164,328 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottmac112 View Post
Not more hostile, just a lot more common sense flowing here . Alright, let's start. There's a difference in the 1770s and now. For one, there was no government here in the beginning. They started this country. There were nobody to take jobs from, no taxes to cop out of, no civic duties to shirk.



Again, they didn't sign any paperwork because there was no government here. They started the government. Which makes them more entrepreneurs than illegal immigrants. And not all colonial settlements worked that way. Look at Pennsylvania with the Quakers. They lived at peace with the Native Americans, and cooperated with them in a true "commonwealth".



Well, you get what you pay for. Good things come to those who wait. Tell your friends that they'll get to come here eventually. It's worked for around 200 years. Now, I think that we could pay more attention to the immigration system if we weren't having to focus on a broken economy; botched, pointless healthcare reform; and natural disasters left and right. But how about this. Stop the illegal immigration, and we can work on improving the legal immigration system. Also, there are legal ways to make money in Mexico. Don't even try to tell me that the only way to make money in Mexico is to (illegally) wade through the most polluted river in North America, work on a farm, then wade through the same river (probably bringing illness to both sides of the border in the process), to bring home less than you would make if you legally lived here!
I agree with all you stated. If there is a long wait to come here it is probably because we have no need for them. Are we to base our immigration policies on their needs or the needs of this country? I think the answer is obvious.

We are no longer a wide open undeveloped frontier with a sparse population either. That is another thing that the pro-illegals don't seem to be able to grasp. The way that immigrants came long ago has nothing to do with the present nor those of us who weren't even alive back then.
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Old 01-17-2010, 08:53 AM
 
964 posts, read 1,374,953 times
Reputation: 847
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottmac112 View Post
Not more hostile, just a lot more common sense flowing here . Alright, let's start. There's a difference in the 1770s and now. For one, there was no government here in the beginning. They started this country. There were nobody to take jobs from, no taxes to cop out of, no civic duties to shirk.



Again, they didn't sign any paperwork because there was no government here. They started the government. Which makes them more entrepreneurs than illegal immigrants. And not all colonial settlements worked that way. Look at Pennsylvania with the Quakers. They lived at peace with the Native Americans, and cooperated with them in a true "commonwealth".



Well, you get what you pay for. Good things come to those who wait. Tell your friends that they'll get to come here eventually. It's worked for around 200 years. Now, I think that we could pay more attention to the immigration system if we weren't having to focus on a broken economy; botched, pointless healthcare reform; and natural disasters left and right. But how about this. Stop the illegal immigration, and we can work on improving the legal immigration system. Also, there are legal ways to make money in Mexico. Don't even try to tell me that the only way to make money in Mexico is to (illegally) wade through the most polluted river in North America, work on a farm, then wade through the same river (probably bringing illness to both sides of the border in the process), to bring home less than you would make if you legally lived here!
I understand your point about the job and taxes. I don't think anyone should should get out of paying for resources, especially if they are more of a burden on the system. The Quakers may have worked in peace with the Native Americans, but a lot of original settlers, I wouldn't have called "entrepreneurs" when it came to how they acquired land and resources. They pretty much stole the land from the Native Americans and slaughtered them in the process, not to mention getting free labor of a group of enslaved people. Obviously we all benefited from this today, but I bring this up to contrast. I don't see how people think, well that's "okay", but people coming here to work, most of the time peacefully, "well that's a huge problem". Of course we need to do it in an orderly way for security but again, I think as long as they pay taxes and law abiding citizens, why not let more come in?

My friend keeps having his application turned down. He has worked over here on a temporary visa, but he really wants to move here because he has a lot of new ties and friends here. He pays taxes (as he is doing now at the company he worked at here), knows the language, and is law abiding. Why can't we allow more people? Most of us, didn't have to go through the long process, so why should we make it difficult for a person who wasn't as fortunate.
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Old 01-17-2010, 09:02 AM
 
964 posts, read 1,374,953 times
Reputation: 847
Quote:
Originally Posted by bipolarpunk View Post
Millions of immigrants become Legal U.S. Citizens each and every year!

People come from all over the World to live the American dream.. they learn the language and assimilate into the culture bringing their contributions..

Because so many people WANT to be American citizens, becoming a citizen is an extraordinary priviledge.. That said, "making it easier" for some people and allowing many to live in the U.S. illegally who have little to no desire to assimilate or learn the language, only cheapens the notion of U.S. Citizenship and the American Dream.. The process SHOULD require hardwork and ingenuity as this is what has helped to make the vision of the U.S. as the beacon of freedom the world over..
Who says they don't want to learn the language? Most Latinos I know speak some English. People have to remember, picking up a second language is very difficult, especially the older you get. I don't think it's that they don't want to learn the language, as it is difficult to learn.

I don't know your situation, but I didn't have to "do" any hard work to become a citizen. I was just lucky and was born here. I'm not saying let everyone in, but why not make it easier and allow more people in who want to have a better living and who are genuinely interested in making this a better country.
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Old 01-17-2010, 09:20 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,164,328 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by e2ksj3 View Post
Who says they don't want to learn the language? Most Latinos I know speak some English. People have to remember, picking up a second language is very difficult, especially the older you get. I don't think it's that they don't want to learn the language, as it is difficult to learn.

I don't know your situation, but I didn't have to "do" any hard work to become a citizen. I was just lucky and was born here. I'm not saying let everyone in, but why not make it easier and allow more people in who want to have a better living and who are genuinely interested in making this a better country.
I don't care if they learn English or not. They need to be deported if here illegally.

Why do you think we should base our immigration quotas and policies on the needs of foreigners rather than on what is best for this country?

For the most part they aren't interested in making our country better. They are only here for their own economical gain. If we can't fix our own country's problems what makes you think that foreigners who come from problematic countries have some kind on inate sense to fix ours? Most of them didn't get beyond grade school and sure aren't experts on making a country better. If so, then why don't they make their own countries better?
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Old 01-17-2010, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Between Heaven And Hell.
11,076 posts, read 7,196,294 times
Reputation: 14328
I live in the UK and from my personal research it doesn’t seem that I would have a chance at emigrating to the USA. As how much as I would like to move over there to live and work, and I believe that I could be of genuine benefit to the USA, I don’t meet the criteria for immigration and the UK is excluded from the visa lottery, plus I don’t have any relatives that are US citizens. So here I stay, nowhere to run to.
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Old 01-17-2010, 09:28 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,164,328 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by e2ksj3 View Post
I understand your point about the job and taxes. I don't think anyone should should get out of paying for resources, especially if they are more of a burden on the system. The Quakers may have worked in peace with the Native Americans, but a lot of original settlers, I wouldn't have called "entrepreneurs" when it came to how they acquired land and resources. They pretty much stole the land from the Native Americans and slaughtered them in the process, not to mention getting free labor of a group of enslaved people. Obviously we all benefited from this today, but I bring this up to contrast. I don't see how people think, well that's "okay", but people coming here to work, most of the time peacefully, "well that's a huge problem". Of course we need to do it in an orderly way for security but again, I think as long as they pay taxes and law abiding citizens, why not let more come in?

My friend keeps having his application turned down. He has worked over here on a temporary visa, but he really wants to move here because he has a lot of new ties and friends here. He pays taxes (as he is doing now at the company he worked at here), knows the language, and is law abiding. Why can't we allow more people? Most of us, didn't have to go through the long process, so why should we make it difficult for a person who wasn't as fortunate.

Here we go with the past again! I get so sick of hearing about it when it has no place in what is going on today. For one thing we are now a nation of over 300 million people with immigration laws, not like yesterday.

Perhaps you should find out why your friend is getting his application turned down. You aren't telling the whole story here. It is getting turned down for a reason. There are only so many legal immigrants we can allow in here per year based on our needs and population growth. What part of that don't you understand? I am all for refining the process so paperwork doesn't take so long but not necessarily for increasing our quotas. It has to be proven that we need these people and we still have to control the numbers so that our population growth doesn't explode.

You talk about them only coming here to work. Some do, some don't but that is beside the point. If they are taking a job from an American and not coming here legally then NO the noble picture that you paint doesn't cut it. We have no immigration policy that takes in economic refugees nor should we.
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Old 01-17-2010, 09:56 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,887 posts, read 30,138,774 times
Reputation: 17725
Quote:
Originally Posted by e2ksj3 View Post
Who says they don't want to learn the language? Most Latinos I know speak some English. People have to remember, picking up a second language is very difficult, especially the older you get. I don't think it's that they don't want to learn the language, as it is difficult to learn.

I don't know your situation, but I didn't have to "do" any hard work to become a citizen. I was just lucky and was born here. I'm not saying let everyone in, but why not make it easier and allow more people in who want to have a better living and who are genuinely interested in making this a better country.

Why is your friend more deserving than the under privileged man who wants to come from TJ? I'm sure he wants to come here just as bad.
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