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Old 01-17-2010, 08:13 PM
 
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Just so you know, I am not a Mexican American I am black (Hence the name HotBlackChick)

The illegal immigration debate is just one big brilliantly constructed power play. The so called "debate" should be more accurately described as a one sided affair.
It’s nothing more than a over capitalized xenophobic rant

We as a people need to understand the individuals responsible for these rants are members of the ruling class of American society (or those who for whatever reason align themselves with ruling class interests) These people want to monopolize the definition of American identity, by telling you who is a "real" American and who is not. ("I personally believe immigration is more so of an identity issue, you are not a real American so leave, you are ruining my country")

Yes, It is true that changing Governmental polices towards immigration could have a signifant impact on the Economy, I don't think anyone denies this, but there are MANY other profound ways to transform the national economy. So my question to you is why has illegal immigration been made such the hot topic?

WELL FOR ONE BECAUSE It is a very convenient way for people who control public discourse to merge two things:

On one side of the coin we have ordinary working people feeling incredibly insecure and uncertain about the future. This situation is only made worse by the increasing concentration of wealth, resources, and power into the hands of the already wealthy. (This is what happens under predatory capitalism)

On the other side we have very effective tools controlling public option such as racism, scapegoating, manipulation of information for the purpose of fear mongering. So the illegal immigration debate is the bringing of these two things together.

In a Nutshell: Americans are being told we are in danger of losing not only our jobs but our language our culture and security and it's all the fault of "those" people who are not "us". It is the "Immigrants” fault and we should be fearful of "them"
We need to protect ourselves and our country against "them" (the aliens).
This is the identity aspect that I was talking about earlier and this is an act of misdirection.

You get your average American worker all riled up by telling them their jobs are being stolen by illegal immigrants. Supposedly the immigrants are sucking all the profits from the economy thus they must be getting very rich. Of course this is a LIE...There are profits but the big profits are NOT going to illegals, nor are they going to middle class. In actuality a disproportionate amount is being systematically funneled into the pockets of the richest of the rich. Even conservative economist agree on this

These self appointed watch dogs of Americanism have done a good job at creating popular animosity towards the Mexican Newcomers. If you think about it what they have been able to achieve is quite remarkable.

They have basically taken a group of people (just like you and I) living in extremely impoverished places and have branded them as criminal opportunists bent on exploiting America's generosity.
Which is ironic since first-world exploitation of the third world has historically been the driving force behind creating the POVERTY that they are trying to escape in the first place.
I can't believe the lack of compassion some people have, put yourself in their shoes.

We act as if the laws concerning immigrants dropped out of the sky directly from God...OF COURSE NOT. Laws are made and enforced by the dominant group in a society, generally to benefit themselves.

The same way the you can put millions of minorities in jail by creating a war on drugs or terrorize ENTIRE NATIONS by inventing a so called "war on terror".
To sum it up you can attack people by making them illegal. You demonize them. You contribute every social ill to their presence.

That’s hypocritical because the United States has yet to acknowledge their own status as settlers or "immigrants" (we don't have to approach this historically I'm sure you know about Columbus already).
This country was built on the exploitation of native land and our existence would not be possible had it not been for 500 years of genocide.
But I guess thinking about genocide and stealing makes people feel bad uh?
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Old 01-17-2010, 08:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotBlackChick View Post
dy).
This country was built on the exploitation of native land and our existence would not be possible had it not been for 500 years of genocide.
But I guess thinking about genocide and stealing makes people feel bad uh?
If it's THAT bad...nothing but 500 years of genocide; then I'd think you'd have no choice but to leave, in search of a kinder, less genocidal society. As long as you're here, enjoying the benefits of living on 'stolen property' gained by genocide, doesn't that make you an 'accessory' to the crime? It's like accepting a college scholarship paid for by Adolf Hitler, it seems to me. Wouldn't that make you a sort of 'quasi-nazi'? I think so.

This is a tough one for me. I may have to think this over, and perhaps join you in leaving. I'll have to talk it over with my spouse...she's a Native (a 'genocide survivor' as it were), and I suppose I MIGHT be able to stay on as her guest. She'll probably allow our 3 kids and 4 grandkids to stay, too.

If not, though, I think you should consider my advice. Living in an exploitive, hateful, genocidal society (one which makes a special effort to oppress Mexicans), and living surrounded by the benefits here, makes you just as 'guilty' yourself, and complicit in these crimes, as accepting a ride in a stolen car.....or allowing an embezzler to buy you dinner.

If you were being true to your beliefs, you'd HAVE to leave..I don't see any way you could stay. I might even have to follow you...depending on how my conversation with my wife goes. I don't think our society is QUITE as evil as you seem to...but you've made me think. Hmmmmm ??
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Old 01-17-2010, 08:41 PM
 
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So you just 'know' that anyone and everyone who is against illegal immigration are insecure and xenophobic? What do you base that 'knowledge' on? It certainly is not reality....

The reality is that illegal immigration helps noone. It benefits noone. Well, it benefits employers who exploit illegal labor. And I suppose it has the benefit for the illegals if they stay long enough there is always a chance for yet another last amnesty. Or pathway to citizenship or whatever the new phrase du jour is.

Does unimpeded immigration (which is what illegal immigration is, after all) benefit the environment? Does it stress already old infrastructures? What about class sizes and funds? How about things like medicaid and food stamps and free lunch programs - all things the 'anchor babies' from illegals enjoy?

It may make one feel enlightened and even superior to dismiss others dislike of illegal immigration as simply the end result of xenophobia, but that is wrong and shallow and ultimately ignorant.
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Old 01-17-2010, 08:52 PM
 
8,743 posts, read 10,014,888 times
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ILLEGAL immigrants were never welcomed here and it will remain that way

Get the **** out of my country. Simple as that.

Signed-
A female minority.
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:29 PM
 
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But if you lived in a abysmal, corrupt, wasteland wouldn't you want to come here to give your kids a better chance?
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:29 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,632,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotBlackChick View Post
Just so you know, I am not a Mexican American I am black (Hence the name HotBlackChick)

That’s hypocritical because the United States has yet to acknowledge their own status as settlers or "immigrants" (we don't have to approach this historically I'm sure you know about Columbus already).
This country was built on the exploitation of native land and our existence would not be possible had it not been for 500 years of genocide.
But I guess thinking about genocide and stealing makes people feel bad uh?
In all candor, I gave your post a 'second read'. I still think it's WAY over the top and one-sided..but OK, I'll say it...there IS a thread of truth in your accusations.

The US does have lots of 'baggage'. It's a big place, and it's stepped on a few toes. Its record is far from perfect.

But your post fails to put things in perspective. Virtually ALL countries were 'stolen' from their previous inhabitants...some repeatedly so. The US has at least acknowledged its faults, and made some token efforts to make things 'right'. The same could be said for slavery, segregation, etc. MANY societies have been guilty in this regard...only a few admit their guilt, and fewer still try to do anything about it.

Exploitation? Yes...the rich 'screw' the poor...that's the human condition; it exists all over the world. HERE, the rich are not QUITE as free to 'screw' us, and our poor are not QUITE as bad off as elsewhere..but OK, you're right..the rich take advantage of the poor.

Genocide? I'd call what happened to the Indians 'cultural annhilation'..but not a true genocide. Was it bad? Of course it was....but pretty common throughout the world, too. Genocide is going on as we speak, in Sudan and elsewhere.

ALL nations see themselves as 'special'. ALL groups and cultures feel they 'have something' that sets them apart. ALL countries have laws..most of them vastly less fair than ours.

SOME 'nice' countries encourage immigration; many do not. A few countries seek to make immigrants 'a part of society'...others condemn immigrants to a perpetual state of being 'outsiders'.

'Mexican Newcomers' are sometimes made to feel unwelcome? Well, yes...since a HUGE percentage of them these days are illegal, they may very well BE unwelcome. Every country has laws regarding who's "in" and who's not...and if you're not 'legal' then you're illegal. And if you're illegal, you may be unwelcome..that's the way it works in a land of laws. It may be abitrary, but it's the only 'sane' alternative. The alternative to law is anarchy...and that's a lot worse.

I won't belabor the matter further.we'll obviously never agree. I only wanted to clear my name. I'm not suggesting I want you to 'leave the country'...my only point was that if you honestly believe that this society is SO uniquely 'evil' and corrupt as you seem to think it is, then I can't see how you could possibly want to be a part of it.

No disrespect intended, simply an effort to clarify things. You do make a few points....but they're put forth entirely out of context. America is a 'bad' society, you seem to say...very well then....'bad' compared to what? ALL nations are 'bad'; this particular one, in my opinion, is less 'bad' than most..and WAY better than a few.

Thanks for listening.
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:43 PM
 
14 posts, read 7,760 times
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Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
In all candor, I gave your post a 'second read'. I still think it's WAY over the top and one-sided..but OK, I'll say it...there IS a thread of truth in your accusations.

The US does have lots of 'baggage'. It's a big place, and it's stepped on a few toes. Its record is far from perfect.

But your post fails to put things in perspective. Virtually ALL countries were 'stolen' from their previous inhabitants...some repeatedly so. The US has at least acknowledged its faults, and made some token efforts to make things 'right'. The same could be said for slavery, segregation, etc. MANY societies have been guilty in this regard...only a few admit their guilt, and fewer still try to do anything about it.

Exploitation? Yes...the rich 'screw' the poor...that's the human condition; it exists all over the world. HERE, the rich are not QUITE as free to 'screw' us, and our poor are not QUITE as bad off as elsewhere..but OK, you're right..the rich take advantage of the poor.

Genocide? I'd call what happened to the Indians 'cultural annhilation'..but not a true genocide. Was it bad? Of course it was....but pretty common throughout the world, too. Genocide is going on as we speak, in Sudan and elsewhere.

ALL nations see themselves as 'special'. ALL groups and cultures feel they 'have something' that sets them apart. ALL countries have laws..most of them vastly less fair than ours.

SOME 'nice' countries encourage immigration; many do not. A few countries seek to make immigrants 'a part of society'...others condemn immigrants to a perpetual state of being 'outsiders'.

'Mexican Newcomers' are sometimes made to feel unwelcome? Well, yes...since a HUGE percentage of them these days are illegal, they may very well BE unwelcome. Every country has laws regarding who's "in" and who's not...and if you're not 'legal' then you're illegal. And if you're illegal, you may be unwelcome..that's the way it works in a land of laws. It may be abitrary, but it's the only 'sane' alternative. The alternative to law is anarchy...and that's a lot worse.

I won't belabor the matter further.we'll obviously never agree. I only wanted to clear my name. I'm not suggesting I want you to 'leave the country'...my only point was that if you honestly believe that this society is SO uniquely 'evil' and corrupt as you seem to think it is, then I can't see how you could possibly want to be a part of it.

No disrespect intended, simply an effort to clarify things. You do make a few points....but they're put forth entirely out of context. America is a 'bad' society, you seem to say...very well then....'bad' compared to what? ALL nations are 'bad'; this particular one, in my opinion, is less 'bad' than most..and WAY better than a few.

Thanks for listening.
First off. Thank you for reading my post and for taking the time out to write an intelligent, reasonable response

Secondly yes, You do make some valid points in your post. It is true that other countries have
"who's in and who's out" rules also.
However with that being said I merely wanted to understand why people cant put themselves in the shoes of others.
I will ask you the same question as I asked the others. If you where living in the poorest of condition's with no opportunity and you where willing to WORK. What's wrong with coming to America. I agree, you would be coming here with permission but aren't somethings just worth taking a risk for? Especially if you had small children? What would YOU do personally. Also I am NOT Anti American, I am Anti Corrupt Government.
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:44 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,632,169 times
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Originally Posted by HotBlackChick View Post
But if you lived in a abysmal, corrupt, wasteland wouldn't you want to come here to give your kids a better chance?
Sure I would. Many people do exactly that...immigrate here, legally. Many of these legal immigrants are from Mexico. But when people start going 'around' the law, that screws things up. It's called 'illegal', and in a system based on law, you're not supposed to do illegal stuff, whether you 'want' things or not. The REALLY miserable people, (those who are literally starving) don't GET to come here illegally; they live too far away, and can't afford it. The vast majority of illegals aren't escaping some "hell hole"..they're looking to increase their income. I've known literally DOZENS of illegals, over a period of 40 + years...the majority of them from Mexico. I've never once heard one say he was 'starving', nor escaping a concentration camp, nor a war. Almost every one of them told me they came here because the money was better than it was at home. I have no reason to doubt they were telling me the truth.
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:47 PM
 
14 posts, read 7,760 times
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Originally Posted by Theliberalvoice View Post
ILLEGAL immigrants were never welcomed here and it will remain that way

Get the **** out of my country. Simple as that.

Signed-
A female minority.
I can respect your opinion. However it is NOT as simple as that.
If it where, I don't think we would be having this discussion on a forum dedicated to immigration now would we?
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:55 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,632,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotBlackChick View Post
First off. Thank you for reading my post and for taking the time out to write an intelligent, reasonable response

Secondly yes, You do make some valid points in your post. It is true that other countries have
"who's in and who's out" rules also.
However with that being said I merely wanted to understand why people cant put themselves in the shoes of others.
I will ask you the same question as I asked the others. If you where living in the poorest of condition's with no opportunity and you where willing to WORK. What's wrong with coming to America. I agree, you would be coming here with permission but aren't somethings just worth taking a risk for? Especially if you had small children? What would YOU do personally. Also I am NOT Anti American, I am Anti Corrupt Government.
Thanks for responding. What's wrong with coming to America, (illegally)? Nothing, for a person with no vested interest in America. Just like there would be nothing 'wrong' with sneaking into Communist China, if you knew you wouldn't get caught.

The 'problem' with illegal immigration doesn't impact the illegals..they have no 'stake' in America...our laws aren't their laws; they mostly come from places where laws are a corrupt 'joke' anyway...and if they don't give much attention to THEIR laws, they CERTAINLY aren't going to take OUR laws very seriously.

So if I lived in a poor country, and wanted to come here, there would be NOTHING wrong in that for me...but I'd think you would object, because if I and several million like me did this, the burden of providing a place for us would fall to YOU...plus, I'd be competing for "your" job, etc etc etc.

The burden of illegal immigration falls on the 'host' country...and just now, this 'host' isn't taking it very seriously. Meanwhile, there are a LOT of winners in illegal immigration..the illegals themselves, their employers, and the wealthy 'ruling class' back home, who are glad to see them leave. But that's sure not helping me. I doubt if it's helping you, either.

Thanks for your attention.
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