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Old 01-23-2010, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028

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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Look, the facts are there. Plus, I'm sorry if I don't subscribe to some Pollyanna notion that the US hasn't done ANYTHING wrong. It's MORE patriotic to be critical of your gov't. It means that you see its potential and want your nation to realize what it can.

I never said I hated this nation. I merely stated what economists have said of economic reforms in Mexico (where they started, what they accomplished, and why they were in place).

Mexico is an upper middle income. It's hardly VERY wealthy. The per capita by GDP of the United States is nearly 5 times of that of Mexico. (47k vs. 10k). Keep in mind that the United States GDP was 13th. Mexico ranked 56.

It kind of is our fault that their oligarchy is greedy. We provide the financial and political backing. The US, being the most influential country does contribute a good amount in both a positive and negative direction. It's the negative side that sometimes isn't addressed.
Pollyanna notion? Please. I’m a black woman, who grew up during the 60’s and 70’s. Moreover, I have more than enough firsthand knowledge of the furtive and nefarious practices of our government, particularly our intelligence agencies. So, by no means am I naive. I have frequently expressed my opposition to our corrupt government, so I’m not sure what has given you the impression that I believe the U.S. “hasn’t done ANYTHING wrong.” However, unlike you, I don’t consider the U.S. the worlds’ boogeyman, and the sole perpetrator of iniquity. I’m sorry, but your contempt for this country is palpable.

Mexico IS a wealthy country. Of course, the proponents of open borders and amnesty, who propagate the myth of the "starving" Mexicans, would have us think otherwise. Mexico’s population is almost a third of the U.S., so you’re comparing apples to oranges. Still, the wealthiest man in the world is a Mexican citizen. Furthermore, we have at least 10% of their population illegally living here, and sucking us dry.

We are not responsible for the behavior of Mexico’s oligarchy, or its rampant corruption. According to you, Mexico can’t be held accountable for anything. The big bad USA is responsible for all of Mexico’s woes. Therefore, we are obligated to support their fleeing underclass with our tax dollars and jobs. After all, they wouldn’t be forced to come here if not for U.S. dominance over the nebbish Mexican government. If you must believe this BS to have an internal justification for illegal immigration, then do what you gotta do. But, don’t expect others to agree.
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Old 01-23-2010, 10:28 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,144,640 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Pollyanna notion? Please. I’m a black woman, who grew up during the 60’s and 70’s. Moreover, I have more than enough firsthand knowledge of the furtive and nefarious practices of our government, particularly our intelligence agencies. So, by no means am I naive. I have frequently expressed my opposition to our corrupt government, so I’m not sure what has given you the impression that I believe the U.S. “hasn’t done ANYTHING wrong.” However, unlike you, I don’t consider the U.S. the worlds’ boogeyman, and the sole perpetrator of iniquity. I’m sorry, but your contempt for this country is palpable.

Mexico IS a wealthy country. Of course, the proponents of open borders and amnesty, who propagate the myth of the "starving" Mexicans, would have us think otherwise. Mexico’s population is almost a third of the U.S., so you’re comparing apples to oranges. Still, the wealthiest man in the world is a Mexican citizen. Furthermore, we have at least 10% of their population illegally living here, and sucking us dry.

We are not responsible for the behavior of Mexico’s oligarchy, or its rampant corruption. According to you, Mexico can’t be held accountable for anything. The big bad USA is responsible for all of Mexico’s woes. Therefore, we are obligated to support their fleeing underclass with our tax dollars and jobs. After all, they wouldn’t be forced to come here if not for U.S. dominance over the nebbish Mexican government. If you must believe this BS to have an internal justification for illegal immigration, then do what you gotta do. But, don’t expect others to agree.
Excellent post, Benicar!
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 16,197,803 times
Reputation: 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Pollyanna notion? Please. I’m a black woman, who grew up during the 60’s and 70’s. Moreover, I have more than enough firsthand knowledge of the furtive and nefarious practices of our government, particularly our intelligence agencies. So, by no means am I naive. I have frequently expressed my opposition to our corrupt government, so I’m not sure what has given you the impression that I believe the U.S. “hasn’t done ANYTHING wrong.” However, unlike you, I don’t consider the U.S. the worlds’ boogeyman, and the sole perpetrator of iniquity. I’m sorry, but your contempt for this country is palpable.

Mexico IS a wealthy country. Of course, the proponents of open borders and amnesty, who propagate the myth of the "starving" Mexicans, would have us think otherwise. Mexico’s population is almost a third of the U.S., so you’re comparing apples to oranges. Still, the wealthiest man in the world is a Mexican citizen. Furthermore, we have at least 10% of their population illegally living here, and sucking us dry.

We are not responsible for the behavior of Mexico’s oligarchy, or its rampant corruption. According to you, Mexico can’t be held accountable for anything. The big bad USA is responsible for all of Mexico’s woes. Therefore, we are obligated to support their fleeing underclass with our tax dollars and jobs. After all, they wouldn’t be forced to come here if not for U.S. dominance over the nebbish Mexican government. If you must believe this BS to have an internal justification for illegal immigration, then do what you gotta do. But, don’t expect others to agree.
Very Well said Benicar,
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Old 01-23-2010, 08:41 PM
 
14,806 posts, read 18,801,729 times
Reputation: 11772
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotmess View Post
I'm sitting here looking at how hard it is to legally immigrate. I mean come on I have to get someone to employ me then live there for like a few years before I even get perm. res. then another 5 so like 8 years to be a citizen.
My answer to your question

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Old 01-23-2010, 10:44 PM
 
Location: ...at a 3AM epiphany
2,206 posts, read 2,137,256 times
Reputation: 453
Originally Posted by Hotmess
Quote:
I'm sitting here looking at how hard it is to legally immigrate. I mean come on I have to get someone to employ me then live there for like a few years before I even get perm. res. then another 5 so like 8 years to be a citizen.


And your point is? It takes A LOT to learn our laws, our foundation to SEE if you can abide.

If I wanted to become a doctor, would I say "Wow! gimme a white coat! Heart listening thingy and a sharp knife and I am a doc!"

No, that makes you an illegal; guilty of fraud. How can anyone even think they can learn and acclimate into any country because they supposedly want to BE a part of that country, in JUST 8 years! WE GIVE all kinds of breaks to those with a supposed want to become an AMERICAN by allowing a significant reduced time period to gain knowledge and information of our laws. MOST just want our lifestyle without paying the price we already have.
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Old 01-24-2010, 03:56 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,327 times
Reputation: 822
Pollyanna notion? Please. I’m a black woman, who grew up during the 60’s and 70’s. Moreover, I have more than enough firsthand knowledge of the furtive and nefarious practices of our government, particularly our intelligence agencies. So, by no means am I naive. I have frequently expressed my opposition to our corrupt government, so I’m not sure what has given you the impression that I believe the U.S. “hasn’t done ANYTHING wrong.” However, unlike you, I don’t consider the U.S. the worlds’ boogeyman, and the sole perpetrator of iniquity. I’m sorry, but your contempt for this country is palpable.

That's great for you that you grew up then. Doesn't change the fact of how you react when people point out that America's foreign policies are pretty bad. It DOES come off as a bit ignorant, if not completely naive.

Mexico IS a wealthy country. Of course, the proponents of open borders and amnesty, who propagate the myth of the "starving" Mexicans, would have us think otherwise. Mexico’s population is almost a third of the U.S., so you’re comparing apples to oranges. Still, the wealthiest man in the world is a Mexican citizen. Furthermore, we have at least 10% of their population illegally living here, and sucking us dry.

We are not responsible for the behavior of Mexico’s oligarchy, or its rampant corruption. According to you, Mexico can’t be held accountable for anything. The big bad USA is responsible for all of Mexico’s woes. Therefore, we are obligated to support their fleeing underclass with our tax dollars and jobs. After all, they wouldn’t be forced to come here if not for U.S. dominance over the nebbish Mexican government. If you must believe this BS to have an internal justification for illegal immigration, then do what you gotta do. But, don’t expect others to agree.

This paragraph starts off with a false premise. If Mexico was wealthy, why is it considered a part of the third world? Mexico is a DEVELOPING nation...it's not a DEVELOPED nation. You understand the difference? I can't really attack the second paragraph without having to tell you that you really need to understand how lending works (IMF, World Bank, Government loans abroad) and how the global economy works. It's sad that people don't understand. It shows how insular and self absorbed our society really is.
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Old 01-24-2010, 03:58 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,327 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Excellent post, Benicar!
It was actually a pretty bad post. Not substantive and gives false information.
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Old 01-25-2010, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
That's great for you that you grew up then. Doesn't change the fact of how you react when people point out that America's foreign policies are pretty bad. It DOES come off as a bit ignorant, if not completely naive.

This paragraph starts off with a false premise. If Mexico was wealthy, why is it considered a part of the third world? Mexico is a DEVELOPING nation...it's not a DEVELOPED nation. You understand the difference? I can't really attack the second paragraph without having to tell you that you really need to understand how lending works (IMF, World Bank, Government loans abroad) and how the global economy works. It's sad that people don't understand. It shows how insular and self absorbed our society really is.
Obviously, you missed the entire point of my first paragraph. So, I’ll try again. The relevance of growing up during a particular era means, unlike you, I didn’t have to rely on reading history books to understand the pulse of the nation -- its segregation, its foreign policies, etc., because I lived it. Who do you think would have a better perspective on the Vietnam War -- historians who never experienced combat, or soldiers who actually fought in the war? Furthermore, I am well-versed on the capabilities of this country -- the good, the bad, and the ultra, ultra ugly. Make no mistake. However, my views are not tainted by my recognition of the negative.

The fact is, my knowledge, or lack thereof, of ANY aspect of our country and its foreign policies, has absolutely no bearing on YOUR obvious disdain for this country. Deny it if you choose, but your posts indicate otherwise; no doubt unwittingly.

The fact that Mexico is not a first-world country does not negate its wealth. Their problem is the unequal distribution of said wealth. For the most part, you are either wealthy or dirt poor; although, the middle class has increased during recent years. No doubt some of this improvement can be attributed to the absence of 10% of its underclass, and the billions in remittances they faithfully provide. By the way, how long do you think it will take Mexico to complete its “developmental” stage? After all, they have already had hundreds of years.

Bottom line: Mexico is a sovereign nation, and should be responsible for its own citizens. They need to leave the Similac alone and advance to solid foods. In other words, Mexico needs to grow up and stop being bottle-fed by us. It’s pathetic. Why not use some of the millions of “hardworking” citizens living here illegally to help bring it into first-world status? Why not stop whining about what the evil U.S. has done, and start working to improve conditions, and thus provide decent jobs? Otherwise, Mexico will still be “developing” 200 years from now. They can only continue to use the U.S. as a scapegoat for so long. Enough already.

I fight this illegal immigration battle for many reasons. Paramount is the fact that I don’t want the U.S. to become another Mexico, with two classes – the rich and the poor. You see, our middle class is the heart of this nation; and if we continue down this massive illegal immigration road, our middle class will ultimately become extinct. We are already well on the way due to years of depressed wages facilitated by cheap illegal labor. If we lose this battle, we will lose our first-world status, and join the ranks of other “developing” nations, such as Mexico.

You are entitled to your opinion, and we will not sway you one inch. No siree. Remember though, you learn nothing when the only voice you hear is YOURS.
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Old 01-25-2010, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Excellent post, Benicar!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkfarnam View Post
Very Well said Benicar,
Thanks.
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Old 01-25-2010, 09:21 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,327 times
Reputation: 822
Obviously, you missed the entire point of my first paragraph. So, I’ll try again. The relevance of growing up during a particular era means, unlike you, I didn’t have to rely on reading history books to understand the pulse of the nation -- its segregation, its foreign policies, etc., because I lived it. Who do you think would have a better perspective on the Vietnam War -- historians who never experienced combat, or soldiers who actually fought in the war? Furthermore, I am well-versed on the capabilities of this country -- the good, the bad, and the ultra, ultra ugly. Make no mistake. However, my views are not tainted by my recognition of the negative.

Again, irrelevant. Actually, a historian who studies the war will have an objective point of view. Most likely the historian will have a more comprehensive understanding. A soldier will have first hand experience, but may not understand other aspects of the war (since they most likely will not delve into the history of Vietnam, etc.). This point is moot, since we are talking about illegal immigrants. You aren't an illegal immigrant. So you don't have "first hand" experience.

The fact is, my knowledge, or lack thereof, of ANY aspect of our country and its foreign policies, has absolutely no bearing on YOUR obvious disdain for this country. Deny it if you choose, but your posts indicate otherwise; no doubt unwittingly.

Disdain? Again, you don't get it. You are tainted. All I read is you simply calling people unAmerican because they are critical of certain parts of the gov't. I don't want to subscribe to the cult that you belong to. I feel that your hyper nationalistic POV is dangerous for the nation.

The fact that Mexico is not a first-world country does not negate its wealth. Their problem is the unequal distribution of said wealth. For the most part, you are either wealthy or dirt poor; although, the middle class has increased during recent years. No doubt some of this improvement can be attributed to the absence of 10% of its underclass, and the billions in remittances they faithfully provide. By the way, how long do you think it will take Mexico to complete its “developmental” stage? After all, they have already had hundreds of years.

The first sentence is simply wrong. Yes, it does. By, def. a wealthy nation IS a first world nation. It's not only "unequal distribution of wealth". It has a MUCH higher poverty rate than us. The percentage of the population who is poor is pretty large. The improvement is more due to the economic boom that the world experienced prior to 2008. Cancellation of interest payments on loans from industrialized nations, tighter restrictions on working conditions, fair trade for raw materials, among other things will help Mexico become a developed nation. Again, it's a little hard for the third world to become a developed nation (loans, unfair trade practices, political pressures).

Bottom line: Mexico is a sovereign nation, and should be responsible for its own citizens. They need to leave the Similac alone and advance to solid foods. In other words, Mexico needs to grow up and stop being bottle-fed by us. It’s pathetic. Why not use some of the millions of “hardworking” citizens living here illegally to help bring it into first-world status? Why not stop whining about what the evil U.S. has done, and start working to improve conditions, and thus provide decent jobs? Otherwise, Mexico will still be “developing” 200 years from now. They can only continue to use the U.S. as a scapegoat for so long. Enough already.

It's really scary to hear somebody simply state that a nation can all of the sudden be a part of the developed world. That all is needed is a "little hard work". If that was all that was needed, don't you think that the majority of the world would be living in first world conditions? The US continues to do some pretty bad things to the third world. Well, actually the industrialized world in general. Maybe it's time for the US to actually foster an enviroment that can allow developing nations to succeed. It's, again, scary when people don't understand the influence the US has.

I fight this illegal immigration battle for many reasons. Paramount is the fact that I don’t want the U.S. to become another Mexico, with two classes – the rich and the poor. You see, our middle class is the heart of this nation; and if we continue down this massive illegal immigration road, our middle class will ultimately become extinct. We are already well on the way due to years of depressed wages facilitated by cheap illegal labor. If we lose this battle, we will lose our first-world status, and join the ranks of other “developing” nations, such as Mexico.

What? The first sentence is flawed. You blame illegal immgirants...the poorest demographic in our nation, the one with the least amount of influence...for the weakening of the middle class? That's not true. You probably would want to focus your efforts on the rich. And I'm saying the rich as in a person who makes 300k a year...I mean the top .05% that control an increasingly disproportionate amount of money. They are the ones who you should be upset. They caused our financial crisis, they are trying to block healthcare reform. They finally overturned corporate limits of political funding. One last thing, the wage depression that you claim is more myth than reality. Don't get me wrong, it may exist...but this more likely due to competition from abroad and automation of work. If you are in a low skilled job, illegal immigrants most likely did not depress your wages.

You are entitled to your opinion, and we will not sway you one inch. No siree. Remember though, you learn nothing when the only voice you hear is YOURS.

Say the last sentence aloud in that case. Because you truly need to hear it.
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