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Old 07-18-2007, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Cuernavaca, Mexico
180 posts, read 89,763 times
Reputation: 24

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
...when the Americans liberated Dachau...
Yeah, the same Americans who put thousands of Japanese Americans in camps during WWII; I wonder, why didn't they put German or Italian Americans in camps, too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
When the Germans turned their Jewish countrymen into the Nazi's, they knew that it was likely they were sending them to their deaths.
The average German knew nothing about the extent of the atrocities that were committed; so much so that German citizens from Dachau were brought to the camp and forced to view the corpses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Each of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence in 1776 knew that by doing so, they could be signing their own death warrants. But they realized that freedom came with a price and for the sake of those who would come after them, it was a price that they were willing to pay. Mexico needs some patriots like that.
Mexico has its own patriots—Miguel Hidalgo, José María Morelos and Ignacio Allende, among others; all of whom gave their lives for Mexico's independence.

 
Old 07-18-2007, 10:13 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,619,457 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
For one thing, there are far fewer people who are turning illegals into ice than you seem to believe. If that were the case, then the corner of Belle Porte and PCH where I live wouldn't be a mini DLS everyday of the week with at least 60 to 70 illegal immigrants hanging out on the corners waiting for work. They would have been gone by now because people in that area are NOT happy about it.

I've never turned anyone into ICE in my life and I'm not likely to unless I know for a fact that that person is a violent criminal.

I've said in many posts that I sympathize with those who feel that they must come north in order to work, but I will never condone lawbreaking.

I've said numerous times that illegal immigrants are the slaves of the 21st century and woe unto them if they are ever legalized in this country. They'll find themselves out of a job so fast it will make their heads spin, as their former places of employment replace them with yet more illegals who cannot make demands on their employers.

I am the first one to blame corporations and point the finger at a government that is hell bent on sacrificing middle class America on the altar of big business.

There may be folks out there whose dislike of illegal immigration is motivated by racial hatred, but I am not one of them and there has never been a post of mine in which I racially lambasted illegal aliens and as a matter of fact, it seems to me that you are indeed doing your own little bit of racial profiling if you assume that I believe all illegal aliens come from south of the border. Unfortunately for those who come north, it is generally they who are the most vociferous and the most demanding of all. I don't for instance, see millions of Ethiopians marching in American streets demanding amnesty after violating the law to be here.

As far as my rationality is concerned?
Good post, Kele. Your sentiments are close to mine. Racists are going to "latch on" to this issue for sure, but that's not our fault. It isn't a racial issue, it's a legal, economic and cultural one. I have many ties w/the Hispanic community and most recognize that this can't go on.
Paticularly liked your point (mine too), that no one will want the illegals when they're legal- they'll have lost their appeal to employers.
Congratulatons also on your refusal to allow over-the-top analogies (such as the "Dachau' story) This "exaggerated" type of analogy is used in all too many arguments these days....well done!
 
Old 07-18-2007, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Cuernavaca, Mexico
180 posts, read 89,763 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
I've said in many posts that I sympathize with those who feel that they must come north in order to work, but I will never condone lawbreaking.
I don't think all of them feel they must go north; have you stopped to consider that some may be compelled to do so because of their circumstances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
I am the first one to blame corporations and point the finger at a government that is hell bent on sacrificing middle class America on the altar of big business.
Yeah, but you only mention the corporations and the government when someone twists your arm; the rest of the time it's all about the immigrants. That is why I said I've never been sure about you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
...it seems to me that you are indeed doing your own little bit of racial profiling if you assume that I believe all illegal aliens come from south of the border.
When did I say that? But, just so we’re clear, you and I both know that Mexicans—not Latin Americans or any other people—make up the bulk of illegal immigration in the United States.
 
Old 07-18-2007, 10:22 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,619,457 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by MexicanGuy View Post
Yeah, the same Americans who put thousands of Japanese Americans in camps during WWII; I wonder, why didn't they put German or Italian Americans in camps, too?



The average German knew nothing about the extent of the atrocities that were committed; so much so that German citizens from Dachau were brought to the camp and forced to view the corpses.



Mexico has its own patriots—Miguel Hidalgo, José María Morelos and Ignacio Allende, among others; all of whom gave their lives for Mexico's independence.
Briefly, Mexican Guy
(1)The Americans put the Japanese Americans in internment camps because 70 years ago our society was quite racist, and also because of the singularly shocking and treacherous nature of the Pearl Harbor attack---
(2)I've heard differing views on the individual German's guilt- but I do know that today a lot of folks are blaming America for OUR government's actions- don't quite see your point here.
(3) Mexican patriots fought bravely, for sure. But they fought for Mexico, not for the USA. And the society they helped form, (Mexico) did not have the protections for its citizens that this one does. There's plenty of blame to go around for the condition of the poor illegal immigrant. 80% of that blame belongs to the rich classes who control Mexico and mistreat their own poor. Mexico could be a very prosperous nation if its society were run fairly.
 
Old 07-18-2007, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Cuernavaca, Mexico
180 posts, read 89,763 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
The Americans put the Japanese Americans in internment camps because 70 years ago our society was quite racist...
Really? Seventy years ago, huh? Well, you could've fooled me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
There's plenty of blame to go around for the condition of the poor illegal immigrant. 80% of that blame belongs to the rich classes who control Mexico and mistreat their own poor. Mexico could be a very prosperous nation if its society were run fairly.
I agree on this.
 
Old 07-18-2007, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Cuernavaca, Mexico
180 posts, read 89,763 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Racists are going to "latch on" to this issue for sure, but that's not our fault.

MacMeal, the problem is that many supposedly non racists seem far too keen on wielding the racist nature of this conflict to their advantage, and this happens on both sides.

Last edited by MexicanGuy; 07-18-2007 at 11:03 PM..
 
Old 07-18-2007, 10:36 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,691,681 times
Reputation: 3010
Quote:
Originally Posted by MexicanGuy View Post
I don't think all of them feel they must go north; have you stopped to consider that some may be compelled to do so because of their circumstances?



Yeah, but you only mention the corporations and the government when someone twists your arm; the rest of the time it's all about the immigrants. That is why I said I've never been sure about you.



When did I say that? But, just so we’re clear, you and I both know that Mexicans—not Latin Americans or any other people—make up the bulk of illegal immigration in the United States.
Whatever.

It would be more productive if I just step outside and bang my head into a brick wall for a few minutes.

You just started posting on this forum. I've been posting here for some time. I didn't earn my rep points by being a bigot, but by doing the research and posting well thought out and cognitive posts.

But you believe what you want...you're going to anyway.

It's too bad really, when you stop to think about it, because I think that in many regards, we are walking the same line on illegal immigration, however, I think that you want me to be a bad guy and so no matter what I say, in your eyes, I will be.

Because I respect much of what you've said prior to this, I'm going to back away from this whole discussion because personally, I have far too much on my plate to get involved in some little he said/she said tete a tete with you. Neither person is really paying attention to what the other is saying and if we continue, neither one of us is going to come across looking too terribly grown up.

Good luck and God bless.
 
Old 07-18-2007, 11:18 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,619,457 times
Reputation: 2983
Default MexicanGuy

Quote:
Originally Posted by MexicanGuy View Post
MacMeal, the problem is that many supposedly non racists seem too keen on wielding those racists sentiments to their advantage.
M Guy, I hear you. But this on-going argument is going into hysterics on both sides and we hear very little rational thought. I challenge you, when you have time, to check some of my previous posts. I'm as much against racism as anyone. This problem is a political, legal, and perhaps a moral one. It is complicated by a large cultural difference.
The illegal-immigration activists up here keep stressing an ethnic or "racial" right to the US Southwest (Aztlan). If we start down that road, there's no end to the conflict. No one, in modern society, has an "ethnic" claim to anything. The US is a country made up of immigrants. They came at different times. Some Hispanics came centuries ago (like my wife's ancestors), married with the local Indians, and were here long before the gringos arrived. Others came from various parts of the world. Those people's descendants are now US citizens. Some Mexicans DIDN'T come here, and remained in Mexico. (Actually, the border moved. Those Mexicans on this side suddenly found themselves in the US). But for those who remained south of the present-day border, their descendants today are NOT US citizens. Pretty obvious.
The fact is that the US society is having many problems. We can not continue to take in people forever. There are now estimated to be 12 to 15 million Mexican citizens living in the US. I will ask you this sincerely--How many people would the US have to accept in order for you (Mexican Guy) to say "OK, that's enough, USA..Thank you very much"- would it take 30 million? ---50 million?--80 million?--or have you ever considered such a question ?
It is dishonest for you to insist upon a never-ending welcome for all Mexicans to come here, when your own country has no tolerance for those who enter Mexico illegally. Also, if you are a fair man, doesn't the US also owe free entry to ALL the world's poor people, not only Mexicans?...I ask you sincerely, what do you expect us to do?....
I await your answer-- best to you...
 
Old 07-18-2007, 11:28 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,619,457 times
Reputation: 2983
Default Mexican Guy

PS For a "Mexican Guy", your command of colloquial English is absolutely flawless--are you SURE you aren't really a MEXICAN-AMERICAN GUY, hiding out for a semester of college in Cuernavaca?----I know you didn't learn your fine degree of English by watching MTV !!
 
Old 07-19-2007, 12:41 AM
 
Location: Cuernavaca, Mexico
180 posts, read 89,763 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
The illegal-immigration activists up here keep stressing an ethnic or "racial" right to the US Southwest (Aztlan). If we start down that road, there's no end to the conflict. No one, in modern society, has an "ethnic" claim to anything. The US is a country made up of immigrants. They came at different times. Some Hispanics came centuries ago (like my wife's ancestors), married with the local Indians, and were here long before the gringos arrived. Others came from various parts of the world. Those people's descendants are now US citizens. Some Mexicans DIDN'T come here, and remained in Mexico. (Actually, the border moved. Those Mexicans on this side suddenly found themselves in the US). But for those who remained south of the present-day border, their descendants today are NOT US citizens. Pretty obvious.
I know about the false revisionist history being preached by hard-line illegal immigration activists, and I don’t agree with it one bit. Nonetheless, the United States did take more than half of Mexico’s territory by means of an unjust war, and the scars left by an event such as that don’t heal quickly or easily. This does not mean that Mexico has any sort of right over those territories—what’s done is done—but it is necessary to take history into account in order to comprehend the current situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
The fact is that the US society is having many problems. We can not continue to take in people forever. There are now estimated to be 12 to 15 million Mexican citizens living in the US. I will ask you this sincerely--How many people would the US have to accept in order for you (Mexican Guy) to say "OK, that's enough, USA..Thank you very much"- would it take 30 million? ---50 million?--80 million?--or have you ever considered such a question ?
It is dishonest for you to insist upon a never-ending welcome for all Mexicans to come here, when your own country has no tolerance for those who enter Mexico illegally. Also, if you are a fair man, doesn't the US also owe free entry to ALL the world's poor people, not only Mexicans?...I ask you sincerely, what do you expect us to do?....
Perhaps I haven’t made my position clear on this point; I am not in favor of illegal immigration of any kind. I do believe that the United States should have owned up to the fact that there was a labor void and a real need for cheaper foreign workers decades ago, and made the necessary immigration reforms.
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