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Old 01-25-2010, 02:40 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,176,297 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
I don't really understand how anybody can blame the illegal immigrants for being opportunistic. They are pretty much screwed where they are, can you really blame them for taking their chance at sneaking across, getting a job and making money? I place the entire blame on us and our government for allowing it to happen. If we had better systems in place for detecting and protecting ourselves against fraud and enforcing ID verification systems like e-verify the problem would hardly exist. I would say that's probably the big difference between myself and other members of this board in regards to the issue.

Obviously the preferable method of making a living for these people is to find a way to make ends meet in their country of origin, or find a way to legally immigrate into another country. However, the people poor and starving in a 3rd world country are bigger losers than illegal immigrants who are able to make ends meet in my opinion. If they are able to successfully beat the system, good for them...and shame on us for allowing it.

The other difference in opinion between other board members and myself is in regards to legal immigration. I'm 100% for legal immigration and I'd be for expanding legal immigration...most people on here find ways to mask it but they are, in fact, pretty highly opposed to legal immigration or are ok with it, but in extremely limited numbers. In my opinion that essentially makes you anti-immigration.
I agree that a lot of the blame for illegal immigration falls directly on the shoulders of our government for not using preventative measures to deter it. However, Mexico is also partly to blame for their refusal to create jobs for their own citizens.

Now as for legal immigration, I do not agree with increasing our numbers unless it can be proven that we need to do that based on job availabiliity, resources for them and keeping in mind our population growth. Immigrants have higher birthrates than we do so that has to considered also. I also believe that whether or not we increase or decrease legal immigration that we be fair to all immigrants and not just pull from mostly one ethnic group. It also helps us retain our natural identity and culture. The oposite occurs when you have too many from just one ethnic group.

I disagree that one is anti-immigration just because they take all of the above into account. It is just common sense. We need a sensible legal immigration policy based on our best interests. It is a matter of this country's survival as a nation.
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Old 01-25-2010, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 16,243,145 times
Reputation: 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
I agree on basing legal immigration on needs and not allowing anybody with a criminal record or with highly transmittable diseases to enter, etc., but also I think the US gov't is too strict when it comes to legal immigration for family members. If we apply for my wife's sister and husband to come visit us I don't feel they should reject their visa application on account that they aren't financially wealthy and Homeland Security finds them at risk for overstaying their visa...that's total crap in my opinion.
Over stay a Visa is an immigration violation.........case closed.
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Old 01-25-2010, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,893 posts, read 12,285,779 times
Reputation: 2531
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkfarnam View Post
Over stay a Visa is an immigration violation.........case closed.
I'm aware but the point is they were never issued a visa in the first place simply because their low income level places them in a "risk" area of overstaying their visa if given one. In reality they just want visitors visas so they can come visit us in Minnesota. There are no such intentions of violating any regulations or policies whatsoever.
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Old 01-25-2010, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,931,891 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
I'm aware but the point is they were never issued a visa in the first place simply because their low income level places them in a "risk" area of overstaying their visa if given one. In reality they just want visitors visas so they can come visit us in Minnesota. There are no such intentions of violating any regulations or policies whatsoever.
In Slig's defence. I agree with him. This is not a case of people applying for a VISA with no family members in the country and nothing to return to.
Slig's wife like any person would like to be host to her family. To show that she is doing okay and maybe even show off her home. Not so different than when we have out of state company come for a vacation stay. LOL Seems like my house is the duty hotel for all family that comes to the east for a visit.
I agree with slig on this one.
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,893 posts, read 12,285,779 times
Reputation: 2531
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
In Slig's defence. I agree with him. This is not a case of people applying for a VISA with no family members in the country and nothing to return to.
Slig's wife like any person would like to be host to her family. To show that she is doing okay and maybe even show off her home. Not so different than when we have out of state company come for a vacation stay. LOL Seems like my house is the duty hotel for all family that comes to the east for a visit.
I agree with slig on this one.
Obviously people need to be held accountable and abuse of visas should not be tolerated, but outside of that my view is that the US needs to stop being so stringent on visitor visas. I think we're missing an opportunity because the majority of the people who come in on vistor visas will spend money here which stimulates the economy. Even my political family from the 3rd world would probably spend a couple g's here. Multiply that by a few hundred thousand more per year and we're talking 500,000,000-$1 bil in extra revenues for U.S. businesses. Like I said, we just need to be careful to nail down the accountability and enforcement piece and we'd be better off. These are temporary visitors we're talking about, not permanent residents, they don't work here, they don't apply for healthcare, welfare, benefits, retirement, etc. They are just here to visit and spend money. I am PRO this.
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 16,243,145 times
Reputation: 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
I'm aware but the point is they were never issued a visa in the first place simply because their low income level places them in a "risk" area of overstaying their visa if given one. In reality they just want visitors visas so they can come visit us in Minnesota. There are no such intentions of violating any regulations or policies whatsoever.
I misunderstood some of it.
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,931,891 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
Obviously people need to be held accountable and abuse of visas should not be tolerated, but outside of that my view is that the US needs to stop being so stringent on visitor visas. I think we're missing an opportunity because the majority of the people who come in on vistor visas will spend money here which stimulates the economy. Even my political family from the 3rd world would probably spend a couple g's here. Multiply that by a few hundred thousand more per year and we're talking 500,000,000-$1 bil in extra revenues for U.S. businesses. Like I said, we just need to be careful to nail down the accountability and enforcement piece and we'd be better off. These are temporary visitors we're talking about, not permanent residents, they don't work here, they don't apply for healthcare, welfare, benefits, retirement, etc. They are just here to visit and spend money. I am PRO this.
Damn slig this is like 3 times in one day that we agree. I best look outside and check the sky it may be falling as I type.
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,893 posts, read 12,285,779 times
Reputation: 2531
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Damn slig this is like 3 times in one day that we agree. I best look outside and check the sky it may be falling as I type.
For whatever reason it took me the longest time to figure out what my difference in opinion is with the regular posters on this board. I swear with most of you we have more in common than not in regards to illegal immigration. I just have a different perspective of the illegal immigrants themselves because I know many personally and understand where they're coming from. Going back to Chicagonut's post. Obviously Mexico/any other country with large numbers of illegal immigrants are at fault too but they are 3rd world countries for a reason. It is usually due to the massive and accepted levels of corruption that goes back hundreds of years. They are trying to run on broken systems that are so backwards that it would take many many years and competent and honest leadership to reverse (good luck with that). The millions of residents who are stuck in these messes have to figure out a way to make the best of it and make a living, and yes, many of them who come over here illegally do negatively affect life in one way or another for our citizens, legal residents and government. It's just such a complex problem and sometimes I think people in here are way too hard on the illegal immigrants themselves. Much more blame should be placed on the system that allowed them to come here and live here, not on Juan for risking his life to get over here, to go from earning $800/year in a hole in the wall village in Mexico and barely being able to afford to buy his kids tortillas, rice and beans to eat each day to making 60k/year in the US and sending his kids to private schools back home and driving a new pickup truck. Those are just my thoughts.

Does Juan have a right to be here? Nope
Can I blame him for doing what he's doing? No, not really.
Do I think the government should enforce e-verify and other systems to prevent id theft and prevent illegal immigrants from working here? Absolutely. I think it's ridiculous we aren't more on top of that.
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,690,703 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
I don't really understand how anybody can blame the illegal immigrants for being opportunistic. They are pretty much screwed where they are, can you really blame them for taking their chance at sneaking across, getting a job and making money? I place the entire blame on us and our government for allowing it to happen. If we had better systems in place for detecting and protecting ourselves against fraud and enforcing ID verification systems like e-verify the problem would hardly exist. I would say that's probably the big difference between myself and other members of this board in regards to the issue.

Obviously the preferable method of making a living for these people is to find a way to make ends meet in their country of origin, or find a way to legally immigrate into another country. However, the people poor and starving in a 3rd world country are bigger losers than illegal immigrants who are able to make ends meet in my opinion. If they are able to successfully beat the system, good for them...and shame on us for allowing it.

The other difference in opinion between other board members and myself is in regards to legal immigration. I'm 100% for legal immigration and I'd be for expanding legal immigration...most people on here find ways to mask it but they are, in fact, pretty highly opposed to legal immigration or are ok with it, but in extremely limited numbers. In my opinion that essentially makes you anti-immigration.
You just describes American Blacks and Southern Whites as a group till the 1960's yet they with few exceptions did not run off to Canada. What makes Mexicans do different? If you are insinuating that they are somehow 'inferior' due to the peons having darker skin........that smacks of racism IMHO.

As for Mexico: starvation is obviously not a problem: that $3,000-5,000 a head being paid to the coyotes would buy a hell of a lot of food SoB..
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:45 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,176,297 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
For whatever reason it took me the longest time to figure out what my difference in opinion is with the regular posters on this board. I swear with most of you we have more in common than not in regards to illegal immigration. I just have a different perspective of the illegal immigrants themselves because I know many personally and understand where they're coming from. Going back to Chicagonut's post. Obviously Mexico/any other country with large numbers of illegal immigrants are at fault too but they are 3rd world countries for a reason. It is usually due to the massive and accepted levels of corruption that goes back hundreds of years. They are trying to run on broken systems that are so backwards that it would take many many years and competent and honest leadership to reverse (good luck with that). The millions of residents who are stuck in these messes have to figure out a way to make the best of it and make a living, and yes, many of them who come over here illegally do negatively affect life in one way or another for our citizens, legal residents and government. It's just such a complex problem and sometimes I think people in here are way too hard on the illegal immigrants themselves. Much more blame should be placed on the system that allowed them to come here and live here, not on Juan for risking his life to get over here, to go from earning $800/year in a hole in the wall village in Mexico and barely being able to afford to buy his kids tortillas, rice and beans to eat each day to making 60k/year in the US and sending his kids to private schools back home and driving a new pickup truck. Those are just my thoughts.

Does Juan have a right to be here? Nope
Can I blame him for doing what he's doing? No, not really.
Do I think the government should enforce e-verify and other systems to prevent id theft and prevent illegal immigrants from working here? Absolutely. I think it's ridiculous we aren't more on top of that.
I agree with everything you said in your last paragraph but your second remark. Yes, we can and should blame the illegals for breaking our laws along with all the other lawbreakers involved in this issue. No one should get a pass.
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