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Old 01-29-2010, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,881,481 times
Reputation: 6517

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Folks the topic is : Why won't The US Army fight off illegal Mexicans?
Simply put because our elected reps care more about PC than they do American citizens.

 
Old 01-29-2010, 05:38 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by expect View Post







additionally, i'd like to ask what would it take for someone from say, India to "assimilate" into this country? (not including learning to speak english)
wearing a red sox hat instead of their turban if they're punjab? if they don't, is that "arrogance" on their part for dressing so weird? what does an "American" dress like? what does an "American" look like? talk like?
does it mean this person has to go watch harry potter and stop watching bollywood movies? listen to lynyrd skynyrd and not bhangra music? eat macaroni and cheese and hot pockets instead of indian food? what is it?
In answer to your question, I don't know what an American is supposed to look like, wear, eat, or listen to. Pretty much anything he/ she likes, I suppose. America isn't about a 'look' or a cuisine...it's about a theoretical concept of willingly and voluntarily dropping 'former alliances' and the less adaptable parts of one's ancestral culture, getting away from the ethnocentricism so common in most of the world, learning to view ones self as a citizen of this 'artificial' society founded less than 250 years ago, and trying to view 'strangers' (ethnically, racially, and religiously different Americans) as 'fellow travelers' rather than rivals. It's learning to 'get along' with others, emphasizing our commonalities, and looking for ways we're all involved in a common pursuit of 'the good life', rather than 'celebrating our differences', looking for ways we can be 'special and unique', and spending our time trying to annoy each other like 10-year olds. It's time to grow up, get rid of the bumper stickers and 'be Americans'..ALL of us...rather than bringing attention to ourselves because "I'm different..I'm special...I belong to XXX group...and YOU don't". Works OK in the third grade, but it's a pretty silly way for adults to act.

As far as Indian assimilation to US culture? Why discount the use of English? I think that's a WONDERFUL step in assimilation...can't understand why you don't. (I realize Indians may have a 'head start' in this...but so what ?). As for the rest of it, I suppose Indians could de-emphasize the 'caste system'....maybe seek links with other Americans, etc, and make a real effort to ABIDE BY OUR LAWS and to LIVE A GOOD and PRODUCTIVE LIFE. Do THIS, and as far as I'm concerned, you're assimilated. I don't care what you do in the home; I don't care what you eat; all I ask is 'leave the ethnic violence the religious flare-ups, the abuse of women, and the hatred of authority at home' (wherever 'home' is), and join the system here. Do that, and as far as I'm concerned, you're a member.

Now that I've attempted to answer your question(s), here's a hypothetical one for you....answer as you see fit:

Can you give me an example of a society, anywhere, founded by any group of people...ANY kind of people...in which the 'founders' would agree to put aside their narrow self-interest, their cultural norms, their sense of 'right and wrong', and their notions of what's appropriate, proper, and decent, and open up their "new" society to the whole world, regardless of who the newcomers were, what they believed, how they related to each other, and even how they felt about the "founders", and simply ran this "new" society on the principle of "come one, come all, no questions asked"?

Can you envision a society in which no race, no religion, no ethnicity, no culture, no linguistic group, and no philosophical persuasion was 'dominant', and people were encouraged to simply show up and "be themselves", with no need implied, nor any duty seen, to assimilate to their new home, to "get along" with the other groups already there, to learn each others' language, or to express or demonstrate any loyalty to the place? Can you see these disparate groups then confronting difficulty, or crisis, or adversity as a society, and surviving?

Quite frankly, I cannot envision this. It might be GREAT fun to live in such a society for a few weeks, when times were good and everyone had a job...but I doubt it would survive a 'test'.

I do not think ANY society has existed without some dominant group 'setting the standards' for how things should be done. In some places, that's a religion...in others, it's an ethnicity; in some places it's a 'caste'. But NO place just 'runs itself'. I don't think the US can, either...and we DO have some group in 'charge', in my opinion, and that group is a multiracial, multiethnic group known as 'assimilated Americans, mostly middle class'.

It's my opinion that if that 'group' fails, America as a society will fail (it will still BE here, but it won't be a 'great' society). And if you're asking "is there a way people have to 'look', or a food they have to eat, to be 'Americans' ", then my answer is, "No, of course not". And if you ask "can we all be Americans, if we don't believe many things in common, don't look at our laws as 'mandatory', don't speak each others' language(s), and look at each other not as 'fellow citizens', but as members of rival, potentially hostile, 'others'? ", then my answer would be "no, of COURSE not; what you're describing is no longer a society, it's a nameless, formless conglomeration of 'groups'. Call them 'Americans' if you insist, but don't expect anything out of such a society beyond basic survival, 'group politics', 'looking out for number one', a dreary future of endless cultural disputes, and chronic ethnic squabbling"..

Short answer...no, I cannot envision any group...whether it's a religion, a corporation, a club, or even a country...in which 'someone' doesn't lay down the rules, and the rest of the 'members' aren't required to comply. That's the way humans organize themselves.

Thanks for asking.

Last edited by macmeal; 01-29-2010 at 05:55 PM..
 
Old 01-29-2010, 05:45 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Folks the topic is : Why won't The US Army fight off illegal Mexicans?
Simply put because our elected reps care more about PC than they do American citizens.
I have also tried to get us back on topic but to no avail. You are right it is PC that is killing this country in everyway.
 
Old 01-29-2010, 05:50 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
In answer to your question, I don't know what an American is supposed to look like, wear, eat, or listen to. Pretty much anything he/ she likes, I suppose. America isn't about a 'look' or a cuisine...it's about a theoretical concept of willingly and voluntarily dropping 'former alliances' and the less adaptable parts of one's ancestral culture, getting away from the ethnocentricism so common in most of the world, learning to view ones self as a citizen of this 'artificial' society founded less than 250 years ago, and trying to view 'strangers' (ethnically, racially, and religiously different Americans) as 'fellow travelers' rather than rivals. It's learning to 'get along' with others, emphasizing our commonalities, and looking for ways we're all involved in a common pursuit of 'the good life', rather than 'celebrating our differences', looking for ways we can be 'special and unique', and spending our time trying to annoy each other like 10-year olds. It's time to grow up, get rid of the bumper stickers and 'be Americans'..ALL of us...rather than bringing attention to ourselves because "I'm different..I'm special...I belong to XXX group...and YOU don't". Works OK in the third grade, but it's a pretty silly way for adults to act.

As far as Indian assimilation to US culture? Why discount the use of English? I think that's a WONDERFUL step in assimilation...can't understand why you don't. (I realize Indians may have a 'head start' in this...but so what ?). As for the rest of it, I suppose Indians could de-emphasize the 'caste system'....maybe seek links with other Americans, etc, and make a real effort to ABIDE BY OUR LAWS and to LIVE A GOOD and PRODUCTIVE LIFE. Do THIS, and as far as I'm concerned, you're assimilated. I don't care what you do in the home; I don't care what you eat; all I ask is 'leave the ethnic violence the religious flare-ups, the abuse of women, and the hatred of authority at home' (wherever 'home' is), and join the system here. Do that, and as far as I'm concerned, you're a member.

Now that I've attempted to answer your question(s), here's a hypothetical one for you....answer as you see fit:

Can you give me an example of a society, anywhere, founded by any group of people...ANY kind of people...in which the 'founders' would agree to put aside their narrow self-interest, their cultural norms, their sense of 'right and wrong', and their notions of what's appropriate, proper, and decent, and open up their "new" society to the whole world, regardless of who the newcomers were, what they believed, how they related to each other, and even how they felt about the "founders", and simply ran this "new" society on the principle of "come one, come all, no questions asked"?

Can you envision a society in which no race, no religion, no ethnicity, no culture, no linguistic group, and no philosophical persuasion was 'dominant', and people were encouraged to simply show up and "be themselves", with no need implied, nor any duty seen, to assimilate to their new home, to "get along" with the other groups already there, to learn each others' language, or to express or demonstrate any loyalty to the place? Can you see these disparate groups then confronting difficulty, or crisis, or adversity as a society, and surviving?

Quite frankly, I cannot envision this. It might be GREAT fun to live in such a society for a few weeks, when times were good and everyone had a job...but I doubt it would survive a 'test'.

I do not think ANY society has existed without some dominant group 'setting the standards' for how things should be done. In some places, that's a religion...in others, it's an ethnicity; in some places it's a 'caste'. But NO place just 'runs itself'. I don't think the US can, either...and we DO have some group in 'charge', in my opinion, and that group is a multiracial, multiethnic group known as 'assimilated Americans, mostly middle class'.

It's my opinion that if that 'group' fails, America as a society will fail (it will still BE here, but it won't be a 'great' society). And if you're asking "is there a way people have to 'look', or a food they have to eat, to be 'Americans' ", then my answer is, "No, of course not". And if you ask "can we all be Americans, if we don't believe many things in common, don't look at our laws as 'mandatory', don't speak each others' language(s), and look at each other not as 'fellow citizens', but as members of rival, potentially hostile, 'others'? ", then my answer would be "no, of COURSE not; what you're describing is no longer a society, it's a nameless, formless conglomeration of 'groups'. Call them 'Americans' if you insist, but don't expect anything out of such a society beyond basic survival, 'group politics', 'looking out for number one', a dreary future of endless cultural disputes, and endless ethnic squabbling"..

Short answer...no, I cannot envision any group...whether it's a religion, a corporation, a club, or even a country...in which 'someone' doesn't lay down the rules, and the rest of the 'members' aren't required to comply. That's the way humans organize themselves.

Thanks for asking.
Excellent post, macmeal!!
 
Old 01-29-2010, 05:55 PM
 
2,930 posts, read 6,026,525 times
Reputation: 1375
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Oh so you are referring to second generation criminals. I guess another way to put it is Family tradition?
Of course you understand that by lumping illegals with honest legal immigrants you are insulting the honest folks.
One is not the same as the other nor are they comparable.
No, I'm not sure you understood or read the link. We are talking about people that were born in the USA not people that came here illegally.
 
Old 01-29-2010, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,881,481 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by ♥♥PRINC3Ss♥♥ View Post
No, I'm not sure you understood or read the link. We are talking about people that were born in the USA not people that came here illegally.
Sigh. Born here of illegal immigrants means that they too are also illegals.
The 14th amend. was written for and meant to help the children of slaves. NOT illegals.
 
Old 01-29-2010, 11:32 PM
 
1,807 posts, read 2,790,445 times
Reputation: 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
America isn't about a 'look' or a cuisine...it's about a theoretical concept of willingly and voluntarily dropping 'former alliances' and the less adaptable parts of one's ancestral culture, getting away from the ethnocentricism so common in most of the world, learning to view ones self as a citizen of this 'artificial' society founded less than 250 years ago, and trying to view 'strangers' (ethnically, racially, and religiously different Americans) as 'fellow travelers' rather than rivals. It's learning to 'get along' with others, emphasizing our commonalities, and looking for ways we're all involved in a common pursuit of 'the good life', rather than 'celebrating our differences', looking for ways we can be 'special and unique'
since WHEN has this country been about getting along with others, or not being ethnocentric, or about trying to blend in and everybody be the same? what part of this country's history has it been about acceptance?
did we "accept" the native americans? what about slavery? the resistance to the abolition of slavery? the resistance to integrating of schools? the violence during civil rights era? is that what you'd call an example of americans getting along with each other? the japanese internment? i suppose the my most common cited example about previous immigrant groups works right? the irish, the jews, the germans, the italians, polish.. they all were welcomed with open arms? nobody pointed out their differences in the way they spoke, the way they looked or dressed? please tell me.. i know what you posted is your opinion on what things should be like.. but tell me a point in this country's history when it has been like that... the last couple of decades is the closest we've ever gotten.

everything you described is very un american. the United States is one of the most, if not THE most INDIVIDUALISTIC countries on the planet. Geert Hofstede's research on cultures emphasizes this; you even acknowledged it here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
In answer to your question, I don't know what an American is supposed to look like, wear, eat, or listen to. Pretty much anything he/ she likes, I suppose.
"pretty much anything" includes people who want to dress in leather pants, covered in tattoos and piercings to someone who wants to wear a turban or yarmulke. this country has always been about self expression, about competition, about outdoing the next man, about out earning, out gaining, about having a faster car, about having a bigger house.. what you described sounds more socialistic than anything... there is no such thing as a prototypical "american." Michael Jordan is every bit of an American as Robert Oppenheimer, Alex Rodriguez or Michelle Kwan.


Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
As far as Indian assimilation to US culture? Why discount the use of English? I think that's a WONDERFUL step in assimilation...can't understand why you don't. (I realize Indians may have a 'head start' in this...but so what ?). As for the rest of it, I suppose Indians could de-emphasize the 'caste system'....maybe seek links with other Americans, etc, and make a real effort to ABIDE BY OUR LAWS and to LIVE A GOOD and PRODUCTIVE LIFE. Do THIS, and as far as I'm concerned, you're assimilated. I don't care what you do in the home; I don't care what you eat; all I ask is 'leave the ethnic violence the religious flare-ups, the abuse of women, and the hatred of authority at home' (wherever 'home' is), and join the system here. Do that, and as far as I'm concerned, you're a member.
i didnt dismiss learning to speak English.. i said aside from English, which i agree is of paramount importance. as for the rest of your statement, i pretty much agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Can you give me an example of a society, anywhere, founded by any group of people...ANY kind of people...in which the 'founders' would agree to put aside their narrow self-interest, their cultural norms, their sense of 'right and wrong', and their notions of what's appropriate, proper, and decent, and open up their "new" society to the whole world, regardless of who the newcomers were, what they believed, how they related to each other, and even how they felt about the "founders", and simply ran this "new" society on the principle of "come one, come all, no questions asked"?
There is NO country like the United States. I argue that the variety of its residents and citizens is what make it great, in my opinion the greatest country. I dont deny its faults, past or present. But i wouldn't live anywhere else in the world.
With that said, nobody is putting aside their culture or self interest here. Nobody is throwing away their moral guidelines or view of the world for somebody else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Can you envision a society in which no race, no religion, no ethnicity, no culture, no linguistic group, and no philosophical persuasion was 'dominant',
wait... this sounds like your ideal situation for the country to me
"trying to view 'strangers' (ethnically, racially, and religiously different Americans) as 'fellow travelers' rather than rivals. It's learning to 'get along' with others, emphasizing our commonalities, and looking for ways we're all involved in a common pursuit of 'the good life', rather than 'celebrating our differences', looking for ways we can be 'special and unique"

is it me, or are religion, ethnicity, culture, language are things that differentiate us from each other and make us UNIQUE? so do you want to forget these things as you initially suggested, or do you want to keep them?

You didnt ask this, but this is my view of effectively assimilating to this country means:
follow the laws of the land (which includes being here legally), learn the language! contribute/dont be a drain to the country. and thats pretty much it.

ps- i apologize if this comes out long. got kind of out of hand with the quoting it seems
 
Old 01-30-2010, 04:09 AM
 
2,381 posts, read 4,409,314 times
Reputation: 475
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Sigh. Born here of illegal immigrants means that they too are also illegals.
The 14th amend. was written for and meant to help the children of slaves. NOT illegals.
Let's not debate the 14th ammendment on this thread. For legality purposes, anyone born on US soil are legally American citizens. They are not illegals even if their parents are. End of story.
 
Old 01-30-2010, 04:27 AM
 
2,381 posts, read 4,409,314 times
Reputation: 475
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Hence my concern that if/when things turn truly ugly against illegal aliens (which they probably will barring mass deportations)-----------I am very concerned about innocent people (of any race/ethnicity/political definition) who look 'Mexican' being caught in the crossfire between the extremists on both sides.
What you don't understand AZBear is that it is wrong to justify prejudice toward Spanish speakers simply because you want to SPEED UP the assimilation process. It's ignorance to stereotype people by their looks and thus kind of attitude will only bring about negative consequences. Hate generates hate. Hate is never a solution.
 
Old 01-30-2010, 06:47 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by zacatecana View Post
Let's not debate the 14th ammendment on this thread. For legality purposes, anyone born on US soil are legally American citizens. They are not illegals even if their parents are. End of story.
And; precedent has been set in virtually all other First World nations rescinding birthright citizenship to eliminate Anchor Babies so; it is just a matter of time when before the USA falls in line.
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