U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 01-30-2010, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,637,375 times
Reputation: 3785

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by zacatecana View Post
What you don't understand AZBear is that it is wrong to justify prejudice toward Spanish speakers simply because you want to SPEED UP the assimilation process. It's ignorance to stereotype people by their looks and thus kind of attitude will only bring about negative consequences. Hate generates hate. Hate is never a solution.
I am not the one justifying prejudice. My post is a premonition that there will be trouble for those innocent people who look stereotypically 'Hispanic' and may or may not even speak Spanish. Note such folks could Americans of Asian, Black, Indian (both East and American), Latino, or even dark skinned Anglo White (Arab, Iranian, Italian, German, etc.) lineage.
Read that I am worried.

 
Old 01-30-2010, 11:18 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,620,778 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by expect View Post
since WHEN has this country been about getting along with others, or not being ethnocentric, or about trying to blend in and everybody be the same? what part of this country's history has it been about acceptance?
did we "accept" the native americans? what about slavery? the resistance to the abolition of slavery? the resistance to integrating of schools? the violence during civil rights era? is that what you'd call an example of americans getting along with each other? the japanese internment? i suppose the my most common cited example about previous immigrant groups works right? the irish, the jews, the germans, the italians, polish.. they all were welcomed with open arms? nobody pointed out their differences in the way they spoke, the way they looked or dressed? please tell me.. i know what you posted is your opinion on what things should be like.. but tell me a point in this country's history when it has been like that... the last couple of decades is the closest we've ever gotten.

everything you described is very un american. the United States is one of the most, if not THE most INDIVIDUALISTIC countries on the planet. Geert Hofstede's research on cultures emphasizes this; you even acknowledged it here:



"pretty much anything" includes people who want to dress in leather pants, covered in tattoos and piercings to someone who wants to wear a turban or yarmulke. this country has always been about self expression, about competition, about outdoing the next man, about out earning, out gaining, about having a faster car, about having a bigger house.. what you described sounds more socialistic than anything... there is no such thing as a prototypical "american." Michael Jordan is every bit of an American as Robert Oppenheimer, Alex Rodriguez or Michelle Kwan.




i didnt dismiss learning to speak English.. i said aside from English, which i agree is of paramount importance. as for the rest of your statement, i pretty much agree.



There is NO country like the United States. I argue that the variety of its residents and citizens is what make it great, in my opinion the greatest country. I dont deny its faults, past or present. But i wouldn't live anywhere else in the world.
With that said, nobody is putting aside their culture or self interest here. Nobody is throwing away their moral guidelines or view of the world for somebody else.



wait... this sounds like your ideal situation for the country to me
"trying to view 'strangers' (ethnically, racially, and religiously different Americans) as 'fellow travelers' rather than rivals. It's learning to 'get along' with others, emphasizing our commonalities, and looking for ways we're all involved in a common pursuit of 'the good life', rather than 'celebrating our differences', looking for ways we can be 'special and unique"

is it me, or are religion, ethnicity, culture, language are things that differentiate us from each other and make us UNIQUE? so do you want to forget these things as you initially suggested, or do you want to keep them?

You didnt ask this, but this is my view of effectively assimilating to this country means:
follow the laws of the land (which includes being here legally), learn the language! contribute/dont be a drain to the country. and thats pretty much it.

ps- i apologize if this comes out long. got kind of out of hand with the quoting it seems
OK, point(s) taken....you have your opinions, and I have mine. AS for "what is American culture....and what is assimilation ?", you can 'nail' me all day on the specifics, and you'll probably win. I have no desire to further belabor the subject, and you and I disagree more on a few specifics (and a few semantics), rather than the general.

When did we "all get along"? Well, of course, that's a relative term. But there was a time in the past when Germans and Italians "got along" at least well enough, and felt 'American' enough (and managed to downplay their ethnic loyalties sufficiently), to join the US military and take up arms against Germany and Italy. Japanese internment? An awful thing...yet many of the 'interred' also joind the US military. So was this evidence of groups 'getting along' in American society? Relative to many other societies on earth (far less diverse societies) yes, it WAS 'getting along'. American culture is 'far from perfect'? Of course it is....but how many societies have ever even attempted to do what we've atempted to do here?..that is, welcoming the entire human race? So we don't always 'get along'? Compared to where, if you don't mind my asking?

Suffice it to say I would imagine 'American Culture' (the multiethnic, free, benevolent and secular culture we've built here, allowing MOST of us to live in peace, cooperation, and harmony with each other MOST of the time), while it may be hard to define, is a very real, very rare thing....and like good health, clean water, peace, and wholesome food, while it may be 'taken for granted' by those of us who have it, would become VERY recognizable if the time ever came when we suddenly lost it. Hopefully, neither you nor I will ever have to experience this.

I will not attempt further to define it; that would be fruitless, and you'd always have an argument. Nor would I try to explain why someone should 'watch his diet'....or 'obey traffic laws'.....or 'avoid excessive drinking'. Such arguments are never 'won', they're just one person's opinion vying with another's. I can't explain to a 12-year old why "school isn't stupid", nor "adult rules are neccessary", nor why "it's important to obey the law"....but I still believe these things are so. That would be my opinion, whether anyone agreed with me or not.

In my opinion, (and it's ONLY my opinion), we have a 'culture' here in America, which is open, broad-minded, accepting, accomodating, and welcoming. It will accomodate MANY new things, but it can't accomodate EVERYTHING; it has rules, and limits, and if not maintained, it COULD fail to survive. It's also my opinion that the very 'openness' of American culture, its ability to accomodate newcomers, its lack of oppressive 'rules', and its adaptability and its freedoms, results in a society SO free and open that it leads SOME of us to include that it has "no rules at ALL"..that the entire basis of living in America is "It's a free country, and I can do whatever I want, and I don't have to answer to anybody' and nobody can tell me what to do". To me, that's a grave misstatement; it's childish, it's simplistic, and its inaccurate. But again, that's only my opinion. Can I "prove" it? No. Do I "have links"? No. Can I "convince you" of it? No.

Nevertheless, that's my opinion. Yours obviously differs. Thanks for an interesting exchange.
 
Old 01-30-2010, 12:38 PM
 
Location: central Oregon
1,856 posts, read 2,027,545 times
Reputation: 2382
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post

In my opinion, (and it's ONLY my opinion), we have a 'culture' here in America, which is open, broad-minded, accepting, accomodating, and welcoming. It will accomodate MANY new things, but it can't accomodate EVERYTHING; it has rules, and limits, and if not maintained, it COULD fail to survive. It's also my opinion that the very 'openness' of American culture, its ability to accomodate newcomers, its lack of oppressive 'rules', and its adaptability and its freedoms, results in a society SO free and open that it leads SOME of us to include that it has "no rules at ALL"..that the entire basis of living in America is "It's a free country, and I can do whatever I want, and I don't have to answer to anybody' and nobody can tell me what to do". To me, that's a grave misstatement; it's childish, it's simplistic, and its inaccurate. But again, that's only my opinion. Can I "prove" it? No. Do I "have links"? No. Can I "convince you" of it? No.

Nevertheless, that's my opinion. Yours obviously differs. Thanks for an interesting exchange.
Can you say it's ONLY your opinion if I share these thoughts?
Well, some people feel they are above the law and in their minds there is nothing childish or simplistic about it. It's a way of life. Too bad these same folks are the ones most likely to wind up in prison.
 
Old 01-30-2010, 12:45 PM
 
Location: ...at a 3AM epiphany
2,206 posts, read 2,139,346 times
Reputation: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
And; precedent has been set in virtually all other First World nations rescinding birthright citizenship to eliminate Anchor Babies so; it is just a matter of time when before the USA falls in line.
I think this reasonable in hopes of discouraging so many looking for a free ride..
 
Old 01-30-2010, 12:52 PM
 
2,930 posts, read 6,030,149 times
Reputation: 1375
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Sigh. Born here of illegal immigrants means that they too are also illegals.
The 14th amend. was written for and meant to help the children of slaves. NOT illegals.
That's YOUR opinion but not the law right now, so it's pointless to discuss something as a fact when it isn't as of NOW. By the way I think it's ridiculous to blame them for the actions of their parents and calling them criminals. In my opinion that is closed minded as no one should be blamed for other people's actions, especially children.

You are really barking at the wrong tree here by the way. I have stated many times in this board that I agree changing the law so children born from illegal alien parents cannot get their citizenship until they turn 18 like other countries in Europe do and deny any kind of welfare benefits. So please don't assume anything.
 
Old 01-30-2010, 01:27 PM
 
1,807 posts, read 2,792,478 times
Reputation: 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
OK, point(s) taken....you have your opinions, and I have mine. AS for "what is American culture....and what is assimilation ?", you can 'nail' me all day on the specifics, and you'll probably win. I have no desire to further belabor the subject, and you and I disagree more on a few specifics (and a few semantics), rather than the general.

When did we "all get along"? Well, of course, that's a relative term. But there was a time in the past when Germans and Italians "got along" at least well enough, and felt 'American' enough (and managed to downplay their ethnic loyalties sufficiently), to join the US military and take up arms against Germany and Italy. Japanese internment? An awful thing...yet many of the 'interred' also joind the US military. So was this evidence of groups 'getting along' in American society? Relative to many other societies on earth (far less diverse societies) yes, it WAS 'getting along'. American culture is 'far from perfect'? Of course it is....but how many societies have ever even attempted to do what we've atempted to do here?..that is, welcoming the entire human race? So we don't always 'get along'? Compared to where, if you don't mind my asking?
illegal aliens also join the military. it goes to show that despite the discrimination, these immigrant groups in fact do value this country highly, willing to risk their lives for this country.
and i'll say again, no country/society to my knowledge has done what the US has done. but with the bad aspects that come with these policies, you also get the brightest minds in the entire world. No country attracts the talent or brilliant minds like the United States. In another forum I posted the founders to several tech giants here in silicon valley- Google, eBay, Yahoo.. all of which have foreign born founders. most of the engineers working in our technology sector are foreign born; the 2008 olympics had over 30 foreign born athletes playing for the United States. it gives our country a huge advantage over the rest of the world. some people call it "brain drain".. people leaving their country of origin for whatever reason and coming here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Suffice it to say I would imagine 'American Culture' (the multiethnic, free, benevolent and secular culture we've built here, allowing MOST of us to live in peace, cooperation, and harmony with each other MOST of the time), while it may be hard to define, is a very real, very rare thing....and like good health, clean water, peace, and wholesome food, while it may be 'taken for granted' by those of us who have it, would become VERY recognizable if the time ever came when we suddenly lost it. Hopefully, neither you nor I will ever have to experience this.

I will not attempt further to define it; that would be fruitless, and you'd always have an argument. Nor would I try to explain why someone should 'watch his diet'....or 'obey traffic laws'.....or 'avoid excessive drinking'. Such arguments are never 'won', they're just one person's opinion vying with another's. I can't explain to a 12-year old why "school isn't stupid", nor "adult rules are neccessary", nor why "it's important to obey the law"....but I still believe these things are so. That would be my opinion, whether anyone agreed with me or not.

In my opinion, (and it's ONLY my opinion), we have a 'culture' here in America, which is open, broad-minded, accepting, accomodating, and welcoming. It will accomodate MANY new things, but it can't accomodate EVERYTHING; it has rules, and limits, and if not maintained, it COULD fail to survive. It's also my opinion that the very 'openness' of American culture, its ability to accomodate newcomers, its lack of oppressive 'rules', and its adaptability and its freedoms, results in a society SO free and open that it leads SOME of us to include that it has "no rules at ALL"..that the entire basis of living in America is "It's a free country, and I can do whatever I want, and I don't have to answer to anybody' and nobody can tell me what to do". To me, that's a grave misstatement; it's childish, it's simplistic, and its inaccurate. But again, that's only my opinion. Can I "prove" it? No. Do I "have links"? No. Can I "convince you" of it? No.

Nevertheless, that's my opinion. Yours obviously differs. Thanks for an interesting exchange.
very well put, particularly the bolded part which i agree with the most. and this applies to everyone, foreign born or domestic. have a good one
 
Old 01-30-2010, 02:12 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,620,778 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by expect View Post



very well put, particularly the bolded part which i agree with the most. and this applies to everyone, foreign born or domestic. have a good one
You too...
 
Old 01-30-2010, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,637,375 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by expect View Post
illegal aliens also join the military. it goes to show that despite the discrimination, these immigrant groups in fact do value this country highly, willing to risk their lives for this country.
and i'll say again, no country/society to my knowledge has done what the US has done. but with the bad aspects that come with these policies, you also get the brightest minds in the entire world. No country attracts the talent or brilliant minds like the United States. In another forum I posted the founders to several tech giants here in silicon valley- Google, eBay, Yahoo.. all of which have foreign born founders. most of the engineers working in our technology sector are foreign born; the 2008 olympics had over 30 foreign born athletes playing for the United States. it gives our country a huge advantage over the rest of the world. some people call it "brain drain".. people leaving their country of origin for whatever reason and coming here.



very well put, particularly the bolded part which i agree with the most. and this applies to everyone, foreign born or domestic. have a good one
FYI: is someone attempted to join our Armed Forces fraudulently; i.e. a bogus SSN, etc., that would be immediate grounds for punishment under the UCMJ and the recruiter would be in some serious trouble as well if he falsified the paperwork.
 
Old 01-30-2010, 03:24 PM
 
1,807 posts, read 2,792,478 times
Reputation: 1228


Marine Lance Corporal Jesus Suarez, killed in Iraq. Age 20. (Illegal Immigrant)

Honor the fallen: Marine Lance Cpl. Jesus A. Suarez del Solar

Born n bred all americans:



this one is nice, pin the molotov on the cop car:



Maybe he should've assimilated better :|
 
Old 01-30-2010, 03:58 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,620,778 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by expect View Post

Marine Lance Corporal Jesus Suarez, killed in Iraq. Age 20. (Illegal Immigrant)

Honor the fallen: Marine Lance Cpl. Jesus A. Suarez del Solar

Born n bred all americans:



this one is nice, pin the molotov on the cop car:



Maybe he should've assimilated better :|
What, in particular, did LCpl Suarez do, that makes you think he wasn't sufficiently assimilated? What's your point? Looks to me like he was pretty well assimilated. Maybe I'm missing something here.

A few years ago, Suarez's particular ethnic demographic (Mexican-Americans) actually had the HIGHEST percentage of any group in the US population, in terms of active service in the US military. That was a couple of decades ago, before the current 'flap' over illegal immigration, ethnic politics, and back when such things as 'being an American' were looked at as a worthwhile goal, rather than something to be ridiculed or disparaged....but I'm not sure where you're going with this. What does Suarez, as an individual, have to do with the subject of assimilation?

Speaking of the US military, what's your take on first-generation American Nidal Malik Hassan, the infamous "Fort Hood Shooter"? His tortured ramblings made frequent references to his feelings of being torn between his military duties and having to participate in a US military operation "in a Muslim land". In the end, the 'Muslim' sympathies in his mind overcame the 'US Military' sympathies; and because he couldn't make up his mind, 13 people died, and 30 were injured....so what do you think? Was this son of Palestinian immigrants 'assimilated' into US society? Or was he still 'stuck in the old culture'?....and is this important, or not? He did something VERY BAD, by our standards..but remember, he did something very GOOD, according to several Muslim clerics....so does it matter which way he decided to go? I think so...but that's just me.

I'd call Suarez an 'immigration success story'. Hassan, though? I don't know...should he have worked on assmilation a little more? What's your take on this?

Just curious...

PS...I just realized Suarez was illegal...OK, gotcha. Because Suarez came illegally as a child, this means we should encourage people to come here illegally, since their children will probably grow up to be selfless military heroes? What's your point?

OK, Suarez is a hero; his parents were lawbreakers. So what?

Other Americans are ungrateful, selfish, clueless jerks...so what? What's any of this got to do with immigration?

Last edited by macmeal; 01-30-2010 at 04:17 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top