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Old 01-31-2010, 08:54 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expect View Post
Do you know any muslims personally... because im friends with and work with a lot of indian and pakistani muslims, and they all had the same reaction to that event as I did. (anger and disgust)
so where you conclude that "a large number" felt this way is beyond my comprehension.
I know a few Muslims, yes....all nice people. I have no doubt your friends are nice people, too. Nevetheless, I do not think Islam, as a system, is compatible to peaceful co-existence with non-Muslims. Islamic societies are FAR too theocratic (even secular ones) for 'getting along with others', and I do not believe you can be a true, believing, "good" Muslim, and at the same time, exist peacefully in a secular society with 'infidels'. Either one role, or the other must take precedence.

There may be many fine Muslim Americans who are assimilated into secular society, but they've done so by putting to rest some of the harsher precepts of Islam, not by embracing them.

I have no doubt that there were "good" Germans during World War II, despite what their society did to the Jews. There are many "good" white Southerners, too. Yet for over a century, these "good" white Southerners seemed unwilling, or unable, to control the Ku Klux Klan in their midst...and to this day, "the South" suffers from a racist, hostile, backward image. This is slowly changing, but there are still MANY black people, Catholics, and Jews, who don't feel QUITE at ease in the remoter parts of the South. It STILL suffers from its hostile image. So does Islam...for some reason, the "good" Muslims are unwilling...or unable..or are too intimidated..to convincingly "out" the killers and 'wackos' in their midst.

Individual Muslims include many fine, wonderful people...but, just like in the 'Deep South', while I like many of them, I do not trust their 'system'. And whether you agree or not, and whether my friends or yours disapprove, there's AMPLE evidence that the 'Fort Hood shooter' did what he did, out of religious convictions.....and somehow, the 'good' Muslims were unable to disassociate their religion from such people. Muslims as a world-wide organization have not yet 'secularized' to the point of being able to distance their politics from their religion. Assimilating into Western societies may help do this....but apparently the 'Fort Hood shooter' was still conflicted.

 
Old 01-31-2010, 09:02 PM
 
Location: ...at a 3AM epiphany
2,206 posts, read 2,137,256 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I know a few Muslims, yes....all nice people. I have no doubt your friends are nice people, too. Nevetheless, I do not think Islam, as a system, is compatible to peaceful co-existence with non-Muslims. Islamic societies are FAR too theocratic (even secular ones) for 'getting along with others', and I do not believe you can be a true, believing, "good" Muslim, and at the same time, exist peacefully in a secular society with 'infidels'. Either one role, or the other must take precedence.

There may be many fine Muslim Americans who are assimilated into secular society, but they've done so by putting to rest some of the harsher precepts of Islam, not by embracing them.

I have no doubt that there were "good" Germans during World War II, despite what their society did to the Jews. There are many "good" white Southerners, too. Yet for over a century, these "good" white Southerners seemed unwilling, or unable, to control the Ku Klux Klan in their midst...and to this day, "the South" suffers from a racist, hostile, backward image. This is slowly changing, but there are still MANY black people, Catholics, and Jews, who don't feel QUITE at ease in the remoter parts of the South. It STILL suffers from its hostile image. So does Islam...for some reason, the "good" Muslims are unwilling...or unable..or are too intimidated..to convincingly "out" the killers and 'wackos' in their midst.

Individual Muslims include many fine, wonderful people...but, just like in the 'Deep South', while I like many of them, I do not trust their 'system'. And whether you agree or not, and whether my friends or yours disapprove, there's AMPLE evidence that the 'Fort Hood shooter' did what he did, out of religious convictions.....and somehow, the 'good' Muslims were unable to disassociate their religion from such people. Muslims as a world-wide organization have not yet 'secularized' to the point of being able to distance their politics from their religion. Assimilating into Western societies may help do this....but apparently the 'Fort Hood shooter' was still conflicted.
As always a fair and accurate assessment....
 
Old 01-31-2010, 09:56 PM
 
1,807 posts, read 2,789,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I know a few Muslims, yes....all nice people. I have no doubt your friends are nice people, too. Nevetheless, I do not think Islam, as a system, is compatible to peaceful co-existence with non-Muslims. Islamic societies are FAR too theocratic (even secular ones) for 'getting along with others', and I do not believe you can be a true, believing, "good" Muslim, and at the same time, exist peacefully in a secular society with 'infidels'. Either one role, or the other must take precedence.
and what do you base this from... muslims, christians and jews lived in peace for centuries.. this includes the years of breakthroughs and advances in mathematics, chemistry, astronomy and philosophy(by both arab and jewish scientists), all occurring while europe was in the midst of the dark ages. in palestine jews and muslims had no problems coexisting until the zionists began their takeover.
to deny that islam has also segregated and persecuted people would be foolish however; as would be the case to deny the same for catholicism/christianity. or would you say there is a difference in the forced conversions of millions of natives to christianity? if not, would you say christianity as a system also doesn't work? after all, there are just as many if not more examples of people doing horrific things in the name of christianity. much like in Christians, Muslims as a whole do not agree on the interpretation of their holy book. so while you have those who are fundamentalists, there are more moderate practitioners of the religion. to say that one is "less good" than the other based on their interpretation is an unfair assessment to make, especially if you don't know much about their religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
There may be many fine Muslim Americans who are assimilated into secular society, but they've done so by putting to rest some of the harsher precepts of Islam, not by embracing them.
and you think this makes them "bad" muslims, because they don't accept 100% of what their religion states? i think it makes them rational. or "moderate" like the term used to describe non fundamentalist christians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I have no doubt that there were "good" Germans during World War II, despite what their society did to the Jews. There are many "good" white Southerners, too. Yet for over a century, these "good" white Southerners seemed unwilling, or unable, to control the Ku Klux Klan in their midst...and to this day, "the South" suffers from a racist, hostile, backward image. This is slowly changing, but there are still MANY black people, Catholics, and Jews, who don't feel QUITE at ease in the remoter parts of the South. It STILL suffers from its hostile image. So does Islam...for some reason, the "good" Muslims are unwilling...or unable..or are too intimidated..to convincingly "out" the killers and 'wackos' in their midst.
the nazis and the klan are bad analogies. for starters, nazism took over an entire country. if you went against the nazis, you were killed. or do you think you would've taken it upon yourself to stand up to them? the south was the same, on a smaller scale. there are not many Muslims in the United States (about 0.8% of the population), and i dont understand why the continued insistence that people physically SEE them coming out to condemn such acts every time something is done in the name of islam. common sense would dictate that rational, sane people would be against killing people. And because that fool did it "for islam" or because of islam, doesn't mean the message of that faith is to go out and kill innocent men and women. Just as the crusades were not representative of the message of Christianity. but since you want to see muslims denouncing that fort hood piece of garbage, here are a few examples

Muslim, Arab Groups Condemn Fort Hood Shooting, Brace For Backlash

Prominent Muslim organizations condemn Fort Hood shootings - washingtonpost.com

Local Muslims Condemn Fort Hood Attack - WGHP (http://www.myfox8.com/wghp-local-muslims-condemn-hood-attack-091106,0,555523.story - broken link)

American Muslim Groups Condemn Fort Hood Shootings -- Politics Daily

Oklahoma Muslims Condemn Ft. Hood Attack - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

On Faith Panelists Blog: Muslims condemn violent acts at Fort Hood and offer condolences - Daisy Khan

Muslim veterans in Charlotte condemn Fort Hood shooting | Charlotte News, Weather, Traffic, Sports WCNC.com | Charlotte News

a google search will yield more results. and yes, more muslims denounced this and similar acts than those who for lack of a better word were "happy" to see them take place (though i did not see anybody cosigning it). id say, the overwhelming majority belongs to the former group than the latter.
 
Old 01-31-2010, 09:58 PM
 
Location: ...at a 3AM epiphany
2,206 posts, read 2,137,256 times
Reputation: 453
Why won't the U.S. Army fight off illegal Mexicans?

Because they haven't been asked to yet.....tick -tock
 
Old 01-31-2010, 11:32 PM
 
1,807 posts, read 2,789,925 times
Reputation: 1228
very clever.
no really.
 
Old 02-01-2010, 01:00 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,921 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I suppose you COULD say, if you wanted to, that "Adolf Hitler was a VERY nasty man, who did VERY nasty things, to a WHOLE bunch of people...but none of this reflected anything about the way he felt about Jews; he was just an all-around jerk". However, I don't think such a statement would convince many people...

Thanks for your input, in any case.
That's not even the same parallel. Muslims are not inherently anti-American. Hitler was raised Christian (though later he believed that Eastern religions provided more sustenance). Does that mean that Christians and those that like Eastern religions want to kill Jews? Of course not. Your premise, as usual, is pretty flawed.

The Fort Hood killer shouldn't be the face of American Muslims...Just as Hitler shouldn't be the face of Christianity.
 
Old 02-01-2010, 05:48 AM
Yac
 
5,874 posts, read 6,290,826 times
This thread has lost its focus long ago.
Closed.
Yac.
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