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Old 02-04-2010, 09:33 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,082,947 times
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I'll try to rehash what Macmeal posted a while back. Most of these people coming here illegaly didn't view their own Countries laws with much authority. They view the laws as simply a way to keep the haves having and the have nots without. I believe their views on our laws are the same, they won't stop doing anything until they are forced into not doing that behavior.

No, that is a REALLY false premise. All laws are not created equally. I will agree that certain laws do segregate and some may see that sentiment, however not ALL laws. For example theft and murder laws are univeral.

Our current immigration laws and our sentiment towards immigrants (increasingly even legal ones, notably from the Middle East and South America) do actually do keep the haves having and have nots without.

 
Old 02-04-2010, 09:56 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,082,947 times
Reputation: 822
Pretty much a good summary of what I said. I've talked with NUMEROUS illegals (as well as legal immigrants from Mexico, etc) over the years....and that's pretty much the case. Where THEY come from, the laws AREN'T fair; no one is under the assumption that they are; therefore things can get pretty cynical. There's little repect for the law, because in most cases, the laws they live under aren't respectable. There's little respect for the police, because the police aren't there to 'serve'..they're there to keep the 'little people' in line.

The laws aren't fair here as well. See, you fail to even mention how MUCH of law enforcement here is highly racialized and based on income. Though we aren't talking about here, this is still an important point. It demonstrates the idea that this is not just a phenomenon seen abroad, but also domestically (thus, within DIFFERENT cultures). As to negate your whole premise of Anglo superiority on freedoms and laws.

Because 'the law' wasn't actually written 'by the people' in such lands, (but by some vague 'ruling class'), therefore the law has no 'moral dimension'...you obey it when you have to, and you ignore it when you can. 'The law' in Third World countries doesn't 'take care' of people..family, friends, and 'in-group' does. In some cases, the whole system is so corrupt that it's actually a badge of honor...or a point of pride..NOT to obey the law.

Nor are laws here written "by the people". The law in the first world is responsible for prosecuting minorities and have destroyed neighborhoods. A classic example is the broken windows theory of enforcement used in NYC. While many have noted that there was a decrease in crime, some relate this correlation to causality. Thus, some believe that the decrease in crime is directly and mostly due to this approach. The reality is that this selective enforcement created distrust and more violent criminals when petty criminals were released. Third world enforcement in the first world.

When people from such environments come here, and when their very COMING HERE is, from 'day one', a breach of OUR laws...and when there's no pressure on them to change, to learn our ways, or to assimilate here...then it should come as no surprise at all that people who've never in their lives lived under a 'respectable' law, nor experienced 'helpful' law enforcement, would have no reason to suddenly start respecting OUR laws. In fact, it would be quite amazing if they did. To these people, "the law" has always been a vague concept, put in place by 'those in charge' to control 'the poor', and administered by corrupt, brutal bullies with badges. That's their view of 'the law', and they have no reason to change it just for having crossed some theoretical "border"....(the border, in their eyes, being just one more obstacle, put in place by 'those in power' to restrict the movement of 'the poor').

Again WE have said environments. Your notions of culture are extremely off. You fail to even not domestic examples. You fail to show how economics comes into play. You pretty much fail. This whole 3rd world mentality is something that is a product of your imagination. It's rather embarrassing that people are actually taking into consideration this view. Regardless, how do you reconcile that this occurs with great freq. in America's inner cities, yet those subjugated to this 3rd world treatment are uniquely American?

I this view of 'the system' understandable? Of course it is, given a person's background. But is this view of 'the system' compatible with a long-lasting future in a free, open, and benevolent society? No. Should this view EVER become widespread in America, then America would soon (and inevitably) come to resemble those very Third World places in which 'this view' is the norm. Amazingly, we even have a few 'educated, privileged, affluent' Americans who share these views..although you'd think they'd know better.

It does in many communities around the nation...and not due to illegal immigration. Simply put, there are more similarities in enforcement than you appear to realize. There reason is a why there are FEW educated people that accept YOUR view. It's because the majority understand that it this monochromatic viewpoint that you propose isn't reality. That right now as we type an American is kept in jail due to the inability to pay a petty amount of bail (sometimes as low as $100). That right now a person is going to prison for violating parole (in CA there is no tolerance policy for violating parole, thus if you violate parole due to circumstance out of control you get put in jail). Right now as we type thousands of people are unfairly being searched. Selective enforcement is, and has been, the norm in the United States.

Something to consider as we head full-speed ahead toward 'multiculturalism'. All of this is mostly a matter of culture. Should people coming here from abroad be required to understand our culture here? The way our system works, and why we do what we do? It would seem to me that this would make sense.

Again, the two aren't related (treatment of law enforcement and multiculturalism). It's not a matter of culture really. It's more a matter of policy. Within our culture we tend to discriminate and selectively enforce. Should we tell people that in advance? That would give them a better understanding of the reality of the situation. Or should we stay with the romantic notion of the 1950s of a middle class egalitarian utopia (not really representative of the United States...unless you are middle/upper middle class and White...though increasingly White is not a requisite). I suggest that you actually gain a better perspective of not only other cultures and nations, but your own.

Unfortunately, many (not all) will be in America's inner cities. They will see how though the setting may have changed, nothing really changed from the standpoint of law enforcement.
 
Old 02-05-2010, 06:01 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 40,316,080 times
Reputation: 10915
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I can’t speak for Florida, but in my area (DC metro) one would be hard-pressed to pass a Home Depot and not find at least 50 “Hispanic” so-called day laborers soliciting work. They are not employed by Home Depot or any other company; and when the police arrive, they quickly disperse. Does that resemble “legal” employment to you?

As a matter of fact, I haven’t shopped at Home Depot since the time I was followed to my car by a group, after informing them at the door that I did not need help. Their presence is menacing, and I have no doubt they are a factor in Home Depots’ declining business. No one, particularly women, enjoys shopping at a store where men are permitted to loiter in the parking lot and harass customers as they enter and exit the store. It’s bad for business, and Home Depot would be wise to end this practice.
I don't believe that happens here--didn't happen when I worked day shift, but that's been three years ago. Worked overnights ever since. Yes, they would be discouraged from doing so. There are places like Labor Ready and Manpower that provide companies with temporary labor--of course, they charge the client quite a bit more than they pay the workers.
 
Old 02-05-2010, 06:14 AM
 
12,870 posts, read 12,785,187 times
Reputation: 4446
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
For starters, we could increase the amount of worker visas and not exclude spouses. We could also increase the duration of said visas.
what part of "we have an oversupply of labor problem" don't you understand?

we don't need more workers in this country, what we need are more jobs in this country!
 
Old 02-05-2010, 06:31 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,827 posts, read 30,110,492 times
Reputation: 17698
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
I'll try to rehash what Macmeal posted a while back. Most of these people coming here illegaly didn't view their own Countries laws with much authority. They view the laws as simply a way to keep the haves having and the have nots without. I believe their views on our laws are the same, they won't stop doing anything until they are forced into not doing that behavior.

No, that is a REALLY false premise. All laws are not created equally. I will agree that certain laws do segregate and some may see that sentiment, however not ALL laws. For example theft and murder laws are univeral.

Our current immigration laws and our sentiment towards immigrants (increasingly even legal ones, notably from the Middle East and South America) do actually do keep the haves having and have nots without.
So in a nutshell, to you, there is no such thing as an "Illegal Immigrant"? Do you think every single person on this planet that wants to come live here should be able to do so? Do you think our social service system, as we have it today, could handle such density? Fair questions.
 
Old 02-05-2010, 06:34 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 40,316,080 times
Reputation: 10915
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
what part of "we have an oversupply of labor problem" don't you understand?

we don't need more workers in this country, what we need are more jobs in this country!
We'd have more jobs if half the workforce left it to the other half.
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