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Old 02-04-2010, 10:49 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,168,220 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
Mexico doesnt offer jobs... just as the US government doesnt offers jobs. These workers will change Mexico's labor structure. They may break the generational ties of coruption and good ol boy network of labor; increase the rights of the mexican worker; And start businesses in Mexico providing a economic jump start.

I think the person who said, that " the hard workers went back"...I think youre right...These are the workers that learned to Build modern cities, build sturdy homes, roads, bridges, "Infrastructure"...Mexico Needs them.

And maybe on day, we can come up with a sane immagration policy, that allows some of these hard workers back in to America as Guest workers...
And some to Join the ranks of America's citinens.
There is nothing "insane" about our immigration quotas now. They are already based on the needs of this country, not the needs of the immigrant and that is how it should be.
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Old 02-04-2010, 10:57 AM
 
Location: SouthCentral Texas
3,855 posts, read 4,094,154 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
There is nothing "insane" about our immigration quotas now. They are already based on the needs of this country, not the needs of the immigrant and that is how it should be.
Im not arguing quotas ...Im saying if your immagration laws were sane, how did millions of non americans move in next to you, they crossed the border, but you all ...didnt drop the ball, you couldnt even find the ball.

blame the Mexicans...and close you eyes to generations of...Do Nothing politicians that sold you down the river...
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Old 02-04-2010, 11:11 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,168,220 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
Im not arguing quotas ...Im saying if your immagration laws were sane, how did millions of non americans move in next to you, they crossed the border, but you all ...didnt drop the ball, you couldnt even find the ball.

blame the Mexicans...and close you eyes to generations of...Do Nothing politicians that sold you down the river...
The moved in here because 1. Our government didn't enforce our immigraton laws and didn't secure our borders. 2. Because there are more immigrants wanting to come here than we can accomodate "legally" so they decided to come anyway.

There is plenty of blame to go around. 1. Our government 2. The employers who hire them 3. The illegals themselves and not just the Mexican kind.
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Old 02-04-2010, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,836,058 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
Im not arguing quotas ...Im saying if your immagration laws were sane, how did millions of non americans move in next to you, they crossed the border, but you all ...didnt drop the ball, you couldnt even find the ball.

blame the Mexicans...and close you eyes to generations of...Do Nothing politicians that sold you down the river...
I agree that our government failed us. However, our laws are “sane,” but they simply aren’t being enforced. Had our laws been enforced, and our borders secured, we would not have millions of foreigners, including violent criminals and terrorists, illegally living in every region of this country.
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Old 02-04-2010, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,678,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
Im not arguing quotas ...Im saying if your immagration laws were sane, how did millions of non americans move in next to you, they crossed the border, but you all ...didnt drop the ball, you couldnt even find the ball.

blame the Mexicans...and close you eyes to generations of...Do Nothing politicians that sold you down the river...
That is changing: and; based on US history---------the borders will be tightened up for starters.
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Old 02-04-2010, 12:47 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,086,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
That is changing: and; based on US history---------the borders will be tightened up for starters.
Please demonstrate...
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Old 02-04-2010, 03:31 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,635,197 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by High Springs Gator View Post
I think Mexico needs more diversity. Time for a demographic change.
I disagree. "Diversity" may be fine, within certain 'sane' limits...but open-ended diversity, in which NO ONE, and NO GROUP, has an precedence over any other, is what got us, in the US, today, into the 'illegal mess' we're in now.

"Diversity"...(and its companion concept, 'multiculturalism'....a concept favored in VERY few nations, today), when left to their own limits, unencumbered by 'reason', logic, or common sense, are what makes us now, today, as a nation, question (for example) "what REALLY is the definition of an American? What, REALLY, is the 'American' culture'? What is an American supposed to act like...think like..or 'do'..or NOT do?" It's simply absurd. We've managed in the last 30 years to 'convince ourselves right out of a country'...and the result is that, today, we can no longer agree on ANYTHING...not on what "is" or "is not" an American....and as a result, illegal immigrants are "just the same as Americans"..(except for some irrelevant slip of paper). Nothing means anything...being a US citizen means nothing...and the US as a socierty is no different, or better, than any other...only a little greedier. The USA requires nothing of anyone who wants to 'call himself an American'...no loyalty, no English language, no 'civic duty'...and, for all practical purposes, not even 'legal' entry. If you can walk here, crawl here, 'sneak here', or otherwise show up, you're "in"...no questions asked. You owe us NOTHING...in fact, we owe YOU. It's absurd.

It's a crying shame. It's insane. NO society can possibly continue long, having lost the sense of who it is, what its values are, and what its requirements are.

Mexico still has a sense of who it is...(a nation of Mexicans, with a Mexican culture, and run by Mexican people, in the interests of the Mexican people ).
Mexico, like any nation, may well benefit from a CERTAIN amount of 'diversity', well considered, and in their best interests...but God help Mexico if it ever achieves OUR degree of diversity and 'multiculturalism'...for when that day arrives, Mexico will no longer be a 'society'...it will only be a 'place', and Mexicans will have no more 'say' in what goes on there than will Swedes, Bangladeshis, and Uzbekhs.

A country which 'opens its arms' to the world is a noble thing..but a country which simply abdicates it culture and its principles...and can no longer define who, or what it is.. is just pitiable.

Mexico would be well advised to improve its living standards and its human rights and its care of its poor...but NOT to 'give up its identity'. Mexico could well profit by the lessons of its powerful Northern neighbor..a country SO intent on 'including others' that it's no longer capable of defining who it is. What a pity....what a joke.

Doubt my word? Try an experiment...try starting a tread "What is an American ?" on this forum. My guess is that it would probably last about one week, rapidly becoming an out-of-control cyber 'shouting match', before being shut down by the moderators for being 'off topic, hurtful, vitriolic, and full of personal attacks'. So much for 'what is an American?".

Last edited by macmeal; 02-04-2010 at 03:43 PM..
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Old 02-04-2010, 06:08 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,168,220 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I disagree. "Diversity" may be fine, within certain 'sane' limits...but open-ended diversity, in which NO ONE, and NO GROUP, has an precedence over any other, is what got us, in the US, today, into the 'illegal mess' we're in now.

"Diversity"...(and its companion concept, 'multiculturalism'....a concept favored in VERY few nations, today), when left to their own limits, unencumbered by 'reason', logic, or common sense, are what makes us now, today, as a nation, question (for example) "what REALLY is the definition of an American? What, REALLY, is the 'American' culture'? What is an American supposed to act like...think like..or 'do'..or NOT do?" It's simply absurd. We've managed in the last 30 years to 'convince ourselves right out of a country'...and the result is that, today, we can no longer agree on ANYTHING...not on what "is" or "is not" an American....and as a result, illegal immigrants are "just the same as Americans"..(except for some irrelevant slip of paper). Nothing means anything...being a US citizen means nothing...and the US as a socierty is no different, or better, than any other...only a little greedier. The USA requires nothing of anyone who wants to 'call himself an American'...no loyalty, no English language, no 'civic duty'...and, for all practical purposes, not even 'legal' entry. If you can walk here, crawl here, 'sneak here', or otherwise show up, you're "in"...no questions asked. You owe us NOTHING...in fact, we owe YOU. It's absurd.

It's a crying shame. It's insane. NO society can possibly continue long, having lost the sense of who it is, what its values are, and what its requirements are.

Mexico still has a sense of who it is...(a nation of Mexicans, with a Mexican culture, and run by Mexican people, in the interests of the Mexican people ).
Mexico, like any nation, may well benefit from a CERTAIN amount of 'diversity', well considered, and in their best interests...but God help Mexico if it ever achieves OUR degree of diversity and 'multiculturalism'...for when that day arrives, Mexico will no longer be a 'society'...it will only be a 'place', and Mexicans will have no more 'say' in what goes on there than will Swedes, Bangladeshis, and Uzbekhs.

A country which 'opens its arms' to the world is a noble thing..but a country which simply abdicates it culture and its principles...and can no longer define who, or what it is.. is just pitiable.

Mexico would be well advised to improve its living standards and its human rights and its care of its poor...but NOT to 'give up its identity'. Mexico could well profit by the lessons of its powerful Northern neighbor..a country SO intent on 'including others' that it's no longer capable of defining who it is. What a pity....what a joke.

Doubt my word? Try an experiment...try starting a tread "What is an American ?" on this forum. My guess is that it would probably last about one week, rapidly becoming an out-of-control cyber 'shouting match', before being shut down by the moderators for being 'off topic, hurtful, vitriolic, and full of personal attacks'. So much for 'what is an American?".
Well stated, macmeal!
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Old 02-04-2010, 10:42 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,086,580 times
Reputation: 822
I disagree. "Diversity" may be fine, within certain 'sane' limits...but open-ended diversity, in which NO ONE, and NO GROUP, has an precedence over any other, is what got us, in the US, today, into the 'illegal mess' we're in now.

Huh? So you want a group to have precedence over other groups? As in domination and possible subjugation? That's the assertion. And no, that's not why we have illegal immigration.

"Diversity"...(and its companion concept, 'multiculturalism'....a concept favored in VERY few nations, today), when left to their own limits, unencumbered by 'reason', logic, or common sense, are what makes us now, today, as a nation, question (for example) "what REALLY is the definition of an American? What, REALLY, is the 'American' culture'? What is an American supposed to act like...think like..or 'do'..or NOT do?" It's simply absurd. We've managed in the last 30 years to 'convince ourselves right out of a country'...and the result is that, today, we can no longer agree on ANYTHING...not on what "is" or "is not" an American....and as a result, illegal immigrants are "just the same as Americans"..(except for some irrelevant slip of paper). Nothing means anything...being a US citizen means nothing...and the US as a socierty is no different, or better, than any other...only a little greedier. The USA requires nothing of anyone who wants to 'call himself an American'...no loyalty, no English language, no 'civic duty'...and, for all practical purposes, not even 'legal' entry. If you can walk here, crawl here, 'sneak here', or otherwise show up, you're "in"...no questions asked. You owe us NOTHING...in fact, we owe YOU. It's absurd.

Our nation has always had several identities. It's really a relatively recent concept of "Americaness" in the sense you propose. Not to mention, in your treatment you don't take into consideration the ways we have perpetuated global inequality thus helping stoke the fires of illegal immigration.

It's a crying shame. It's insane. NO society can possibly continue long, having lost the sense of who it is, what its values are, and what its requirements are.

Mexico still has a sense of who it is...(a nation of Mexicans, with a Mexican culture, and run by Mexican people, in the interests of the Mexican people ).
Mexico, like any nation, may well benefit from a CERTAIN amount of 'diversity', well considered, and in their best interests...but God help Mexico if it ever achieves OUR degree of diversity and 'multiculturalism'...for when that day arrives, Mexico will no longer be a 'society'...it will only be a 'place', and Mexicans will have no more 'say' in what goes on there than will Swedes, Bangladeshis, and Uzbekhs.

We live in the post-post modern world. A world dominated by Web 2.0. A world that is more alike than different. Change is already here.

A country which 'opens its arms' to the world is a noble thing..but a country which simply abdicates it culture and its principles...and can no longer define who, or what it is.. is just pitiable.

Again there is a fast growing world culture. Thanks to Web 2.0 (youtube, facebook, twitter, myspace...etc.) middle class youth in Shanghai experiences the same thing that middle class youth in Mexico City is. The world is much more integrated than in the past.

Mexico would be well advised to improve its living standards and its human rights and its care of its poor...but NOT to 'give up its identity'. Mexico could well profit by the lessons of its powerful Northern neighbor..a country SO intent on 'including others' that it's no longer capable of defining who it is. What a pity....what a joke.

Actually, including others is where the world is headed. It's good for business and society as a whole.

Doubt my word? Try an experiment...try starting a tread "What is an American ?" on this forum. My guess is that it would probably last about one week, rapidly becoming an out-of-control cyber 'shouting match', before being shut down by the moderators for being 'off topic, hurtful, vitriolic, and full of personal attacks'. So much for 'what is an American?".

Well, usually it's because when people say that Americaness is composed of various different communities that themselves are uniquely American we have people like you counter with trite and tired arguments that are more or less based on fantasy.
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Old 02-04-2010, 10:43 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,086,580 times
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Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
There is nothing "insane" about our immigration quotas now. They are already based on the needs of this country, not the needs of the immigrant and that is how it should be.
Yes, there is something insane. They don't reflect reality. Also they SHOULD take into consideration the needs of immigrants.
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